Dropped frames with an E8400 (3.0 GHz)

[shinnlly]

Hello all. I have been watching these forums waiting for the right time to move to a PC version of XBMC and away from Xbox. I made the move this week.

Yesterday I received my hardware and I have working on building my HTPC today. Here is what i ordered:
CPU: INTEL|C2D E8400 3.0 GHz
MEMORY: 2G|MUSHKIN 991580 DII800
BOTHERBOARD: ASUS V2-P5G43 G43
Video: onboard video (Intel GMA X4500)
XBMC: XBMCSetup-Rev17640-jester-ffmpeg-mt (although I have also tried 8.10)

I have installed XP Pro SP3 and the drivers from the ASUS website for the chipset, audio, video and LAN.

I am displaying on my Dell monitor (only supports 60Hz) via DVI for right now, but plan to hook it up to my Sony 46" LCD (supports 24fps) via HDMI when I get everything working.

Here is my issue. I have three video files (all 1080p24) I have been testing with and they all drop frames. I have tested:
killa.sampla.x264.mkv
Sample-Cloverfield.2008.1080p.BluRay.DTS.x264-CtrlHD.mkv
Pirates of the Caribbean - The Curse of the Black Pearl.ts (I made the .ts file from a BD rip using TSMuxer)

After a reboot, the very first time I play the Killa clip, it plays great, CPU tops out at 56%. But if I try to play it a second time, it drops about 10 frames and CPU hits ~70%. Each subsequent time I play it, it gets worse. After playing it 5 times in a row, the CPU is hitting the high 80s.

Playing the other files yield similiar results. The longer it plays, the frequency of the dropped frames increases. However, I have never seen the CPU get above 88% (using the "o" option).

I have tried slimming down XP by disabling un-needed services, but that has not helped.

Since the concensus seems to be that an E8400 is adequate, if not overkill, does anyone have any suggestions as to what I can try next to eliminate dropped frames?

EDIT: Should have mentioned that I am playing the Killa clip from the C: drive of the XBMC PC to eliminate network issues as a cause.

[xanadu1979]

Probably that Intel video card. Is it integrated?

Intel lags pretty far behind ATI and NVidia. I would recommend NVidia myself.

[shinnlly]

Yes, it is integrated on the motherboard. But I thought all the work was done by the CPU and the GPU was not involved.

[Maxim]

Yes, it is integrated on the motherboard. But I thought all the work was done by the CPU and the GPU was not involved.

This is pretty accurate. I'm not sure what to do about your issue though.

[danillll]

Not sure if it is the issue in your case, but try to the memory in a dual channel mode. If you need more info, search the forum for "dual channel"

[xanadu1979]

Yes, it is integrated on the motherboard. But I thought all the work was done by the CPU and the GPU was not involved.

Your GPU is always involved when doing multimedia stuff like this. Even if it's not doing the actual video decoding.

[shinnlly]

Regarding memory, I only have one 2 GB stick. You need to sticks to run dual channel right?

[xanadu1979]

Regarding memory, I only have one 2 GB stick. You need to sticks to run dual channel right?

Yes, and that's very possibly your problem. You should definitely use dual channel if you have a dual channel board.

I still think the Intel GPU is the main suspect though.

[shinnlly]

I had an Nvidia 9500GT lying around, so I installed it. Latest drivers downloaded and installed. Now when I start XBMC, it crashes right away with one of those "XBMC has encountered a problem and needs to close." messages.

Any way to turn on a log to see what is going on? I can;t do it the normal way since it will not even start up now.

[xanadu1979]

http://xbmc.org/wiki/?title=AdvancedSettings.xml#.3Cloglevel.3E

You have a 9500GT just lying around? I would definitely use that. It's likely much better than that Intel GPU.

My htpc has an 8500GT and it's fairly new.

[shinnlly]

:-)
Regarding my 9500GT lying around, I had bought a second one for my gaming rig so I could run SLI. It didn't work because the two cards had a different type of RAM (something I failed to notice when I bought it).

I got XBMC up and running by uninstalling, rebooting then installing 8.10.

Played the Killa sample again. Not really any better. I am dropping about 30 frames after playing it 5 times. The CPU peaked at 89%.

Edit: I've got two 1GB sticks in my gaming rig. I will try swapping that out tonight.

[Dwolf]

most likely, its not the gpu, ive been using the x4500HD with many htpc's with xbmc, i dont have an problem with dropped frames (although i wonder how much worse your x4500 is from the x4500HD? )

maybe drivers?

[shinnlly]

Good question Dwolf. This board has HDMI out. I assumed it would handle HD.

[dlmh]

Actually, the Intel IGP's aren't capable of outputting true 24p (=23.976Hz), so it'll drop a frame once in a while to keep up.

The Geforce 9500 on the other hand should be very capable and dropped frames shouldnt be an issue. If you plack back @ 60 Hz you get the inevitable 3:2 pulldown judder, but no frames should be dropped. If you playback @ 50 Hz, the drivers will drop frames to keep audio and video in sync.

For 24p playback, stay away from Intel. Their chipsets/drivers aren't capable. Ati has some issues, but can work. nVidia, starting with the Geforce 8xxx series, has great 24p support.

Dropped frames doesn't necessarily mean that your system isn't capable, processing power wise. It could just be wrong drivers or driver support. Have you installed the latest drivers for the Geforce card? And what settings have you set the Windows Desktop? And in XBMC?

Since you're using version 8.10 'Atlantis', playback is always set at 60 Hz. If you try one of Jester's SVN builds, you'll be able to switch framerates during playback. And with the Multi-Threading builds XBMC will benefit from multicore systems.

[shinnlly]

This where I stand now:
Nvidia 9500GT installed and running the latest drivers: 182.06_geforce_winxp_32bit_english_whql.exe

Installed XBMCSetup-Rev17640-jester-ffmpeg-mt.exe and it is running fine. I think my problem with it before was I was not rebooting after uninstalling.

However, I see no improvement between 8.10 and Jester's build. My CPU is still hitting the mid 80s and I am dropping about 30 frames on average, after I have run the killa sample 5 times in a row. After a reboot, my system played the killa sample with no dropped frames the first time, 15 dropped frames the second time, then on up to 30 dropped frames for the third time and beyond.

I guess I will still try to install two sticks of RAM instead of one so I can run it dual channel. I'll let you guys know how that goes, but I am still open for any advice.

[xanadu1979]

There's been mixed reports regarding that mt build. Some say it makes a difference, some say it doesn't. I don't think the patch has been tested much, which is why it isn't in the main branch.

You might be one of the people that it doesn't make a difference for.

[shinnlly]

Maybe it is not realistic to play the killa sample over and over again.

Here is what I am doing:
I am right-clicking on the killa sample, adding it to the queue, then right-clicking again and selecting the Now Playing... option. As soon as it starts, I press "o" on the keyboard. I then let it play 5 times.

Can someone who is getting good performance try this out for me and let me know how it does on your system?

[shinnlly]

Dropped frames doesn't necessarily mean that your system isn't capable, processing power wise. It could just be wrong drivers or driver support. Have you installed the latest drivers for the Geforce card? And what settings have you set the Windows Desktop? And in XBMC

I have the latest drivers installed for the 9500GT. I am running the resolution on my desktop at 1920x1200. Not sure which setting you are referrng to in XBMC.

[shinnlly]

Posting this to close out this thread. In the midst of switching between the on board video and using a video card, the motherboard died. Maybe I did something or maybe it was defective. Either way, I have returned it. But for anyone looking at this bare bones system, ASUS V2-P5G43 G43, I was never able to get the killer sample to play using the onbaord HDMI out w/o dropping frames. Otherwise it is fine (except for the being defective part).

[TomJensen]

When you run a piece of software, and it gets progressively worse, it's most likely a software problem, not hardware. Assuming the OS is a clean install, I'd suggest trying a known-good version of XBMC, like the Atlantis build.

[ZTOctavian]

Hi Shinnllay,

Although Im running a different board the spec is very similar, however,
I had a severe issue with movies but unlike you the cloverfield and killa sampla were perfect albeit about 2 frames drop at the very start you dont even see it.

I sourced my problem down to the following issue:

Files encoded using mkv2vob to a .ts container for PS3 all had the dropped frames result is unwatchable out of sync video.

To solve i remuxed to .mp4 using mkv2vob.

Try to do this with your Pirates clip and let us know how it goes then.

However you issue of 80cpu I cannot answer.

my specs are:
E8400
IntelDG45FC
4Gb
Vista 32bit

Hopes this helps.


Nick

[shinnlly]

TomJensen, I tend to agree with your assessment, but I tried the 8.10 build before I tired the mt build I mentioned earlier. Same results really.

ZTO, it was previously suggested that my onboard video was the issue. I tried an Nvidia 9500GT and got better results, but still found that my number of dropped frames increased each time I re-ran the script.

I created my .ts file using TSMuxer. It plays fine with the 9500GT.

ZTO, could you try adding the killa clip to the queue and let it play 5 times and see how many dropped frames you have on the 5th play? My dropped frames were about in the middle of the clip.

[shinnlly]

Ok, I really am closing out this issue because I discovered my issue. Heat.

I was running my E8400 with the stock fan and with the thermal gel that came with it. It was already applied.

I installed the E8400 in a new rig after returning my previous one. This new rig had the same problem (dropped frames). This time, I installed the Asus "temperature monitor". My CPU core temp was running 50C at idle and would top out at over 100C (the max displayed was 100C) after running the killa clip 5 times. Apparently at these high temps, the CPU starts to experience failures. I believe I read that Intel says the max temp should be 65 or 70C.

Anyway, applying some thermal gel that I bought and using the stock fan brought the temps down to 70C after 5 plays. Still too high.

So, I bought a $30 CPU fan from Best Buy. I had to remove the motherboard to install it, but now my idle temp is <39C and the max temp playing the killa clip 20 times is 54C.

And NO dropped frames!!!

Case closed.

[TomJensen]

The thermal paste which comes with stock Intel CPU HSFs is actually very good. On my two E5200s (2.5GHz OC'ed to 3.5), I replaced the paste with Artic Silver 5, and the temp only dropped about 1 or 2C when running the stress test. The stock HSF can only remove so much heat because of their size, but the flip side is that its low-profile allows it to fit into smaller cases better than the 3rd-party ones. For HTPCs, the stock HSFs work well.

For CPU stress testing, running a MKV is pretty weak. Suggest you look up Intel Burn Test (IBT) and run that for a few hours. Just running one loop (about 15 mins) will raise the CPU thermals past any test I've ever seen, and will likely tell you if your setup is marginal right then.

[shinnlly]

I ran Prime95 for about 30 seconds (with stock paste and fan) and the temp hit 100C in about 20 seconds.

After making all the changes above, I ran Prime95 for 5 minutes and I believe the max it hit was 58 or 59C. It seemed to stabilize there and move up and down a degree or two every 10 seconds. I will try the IBT to see if my results are any different.

[mpw222]

I ran Prime95 for about 30 seconds (with stock paste and fan) and the temp hit 100C in about 20 seconds.

After making all the changes above, I ran Prime95 for 5 minutes and I believe the max it hit was 58 or 59C. It seemed to stabilize there and move up and down a degree or two every 10 seconds. I will try the IBT to see if my results are any different.

If you were actually hitting 100C it means that you didn't install the heatsink correctly. Stock Intel heatsinks are pretty crappy (especially the push pin installation method) but CPUs should never hit triple digits. The chip probably started to throttle down to a lower clockspeed, thus causing you to start losing frames.

[shinnlly]

That may be. It does have the push pins. Although I did pull and twist it and it seemed very secure.

I ran IBT 5 times and it passed. The max temp was 61C during the course of the tests (using Real Temp 3.0). So I am thinking I am finally good to go.

[mrt2]

Actually, the Intel IGP's aren't capable of outputting true 24p (=23.976Hz), so it'll drop a frame once in a while to keep up.

The Geforce 9500 on the other hand should be very capable and dropped frames shouldnt be an issue. If you plack back @ 60 Hz you get the inevitable 3:2 pulldown judder, but no frames should be dropped. If you playback @ 50 Hz, the drivers will drop frames to keep audio and video in sync.

For 24p playback, stay away from Intel. Their chipsets/drivers aren't capable. Ati has some issues, but can work. nVidia, starting with the Geforce 8xxx series, has great 24p support.

Dropped frames doesn't necessarily mean that your system isn't capable, processing power wise. It could just be wrong drivers or driver support. Have you installed the latest drivers for the Geforce card? And what settings have you set the Windows Desktop? And in XBMC?

Since you're using version 8.10 'Atlantis', playback is always set at 60 Hz. If you try one of Jester's SVN builds, you'll be able to switch framerates during playback. And with the Multi-Threading builds XBMC will benefit from multicore systems.

A bit off topic but I just got a new tv and I believe I'm getting the 3:2 pulldown judder you speak of... Anyway to remedy this? In Windows I have my res set at HDTV 1920x1080@60HZ and I'm using an Geforce 8800gtx... in XBMC I also have it set to 1920x1080@60hz ... Is there a different res I should set in Windows and/or XBMC to improve performance?

[shinnlly]

What is your source material, 24 or 30 frames per second? I assume 24 since you refer to 3:2 pulldown, but wanted to make sure.

[mrt2]

What is your source material, 24 or 30 frames per second? I assume 24 since you refer to 3:2 pulldown, but wanted to make sure.

To be honest, I'm not quite sure... I do know however that all my actual movies play fine... although I haven't tested 720p movies just 1080... but what I'm getting a HUGE jutter on is my TV shows... Like 30rock HD etc... and Heroes etc... they are juttering like crazy but my movies play perfect... I know it's not the source cus before this new tv it all played perfectly...

[mrt2]

Oh and just to be specific all my content is mkv files... My movies and television shows are both in mkv format. ???

[mpw222]

That may be. It does have the push pins. Although I did pull and twist it and it seemed very secure..

I'm pretty sure you just push in the pins on the stock cooler to mount it. I think twisting the pins actually releases the cooler (counterintuitive, I know).

[mrt2]

Ok so I've done some testing and maybe you guys can tell me what these results mean? Maybe this should be in a diff thread? If so, just let me know... but here is what I have so far.

All the files are 24fps I believ. If I play a 1080p movie no matter what settings in windows/nvidia control panel or what settings in XBMC it plays smooth as butter.
Once I play any other content however (720 etc...) it is LAGGY as hell. I'm talking about the video is way behind the audio.

I started digging a little further and I set my settings in windows/nvidia control panel to 24hz and then went into xbmc and set it for 1920x1080@24hz Fullscreen and wouldn't you know it, still laggy... I THEN set it to 1920x1080@24hz (without the fullscreen) so now everything is in a window with a huge black border around it but ALL videos play smooth as butter... Also while this is set, all the menus and the XBMC interface is laggy but the videos play fine...

I then started messing with a whole bunch of resolutions/hz in XBMC and it seems that it really doesn't matter what hz Windows is set at as long as XBMC isn't set to 'fullscreen' in the options or 60hz. No matter what hz is set in Windows all non 1080p content is super choppy on any res marked as 'fullscreen' in XBMC. If I change the res to anything else as long as it's not fullscreen, the video plays fine (it's also in a box since it's not fullscreen).
So to recap, here are the settings I tried and the results:

====Windows==========XBMC==========Resolution===== =====
=====60hz============24hz===========Smooth ===========
=====60hz============60hz (fullscreen)==Choppy============
=====60hz============30hz===========Smooth======== ====
=====24hz============24hz (fullscreen)==Choppy============
=====24hz============24hz(non-full)====Smooth============
=====24hz============60hz===========Choppy======== ====
=====24hz============30hz===========Smooth======== ===

I hope this gives an accurate depiction of my current frustration LOL... Anyhow, I'm completely stumped would greatly appreciate any guidance.
:sad:

UPDATE: So I tried playing my mkv files in windows using VLC player so I could eliminate XBMC settings as the problem and to see if there was maybe just something wrong with this new TV... ALL content plays fine in windows just using VLC... but when I play anything but 1080p content in XBMC it's choppy as all hell... So now I'm really baffled and frustrated LOL...

[LaTropa64]

^^ I've had similar problems. I wonder if the issue is related to this Jittery video thread: http://xbmc.org/forum/showthread.php?t=38530

It seems they are working on it with some reclock settings that I don't really understand a whole lot about.

In the meantime, my solution has been to just use the external player option in XBMC advancedsettings. You lose some cool options like being able to resume from the last stopped position, pull up the OSD and cover info while playing, etc... but playback quality is great when I let XBMC launch Media Player Classic, so that's what I use. External support thread: http://xbmc.org/forum/showthread.php?t=43511

[shinnlly]

I'm pretty sure you just push in the pins on the stock cooler to mount it. I think twisting the pins actually releases the cooler (counterintuitive, I know).

Correct. I was giving a gentle twist to the whole assembly to make sure it was secure, not twisting the pins. It is counter intuitive indeed.

Since all is well with the after market cooler, I am happy now. Now I am muddling my way through Event Ghost. :sad: