View Full Version : TheMovieDB.org - discussion on licensing and license/copyright related to its content
theophile
2009-02-09, 02:00
It would be helpful if the devs at TheMovieDB would make it possible to populate movie information by uploading a .nfo. I know a lot of us have created .nfo files for our movies and it would be great to be able to simply upload those and let TheMovieDB parse them into their database.
LaTropa64
2009-02-09, 03:54
It would be helpful if the devs at TheMovieDB would make it possible to populate movie information by uploading a .nfo. I know a lot of us have created .nfo files for our movies and it would be great to be able to simply upload those and let TheMovieDB parse them into their database.
Agreed. I've spent quite a bit of time adding details to themoviedb but the site runs really slow for me. It takes forever to fill out the details. Uploading my nfo's would be quick and easy.
althekiller
2009-02-09, 04:51
tmdb has a forum where your requests would more likey be heard...
theophile
2009-02-09, 16:13
Agreed. I've spent quite a bit of time adding details to themoviedb but the site runs really slow for me. It takes forever to fill out the details. Uploading my nfo's would be quick and easy.
I went over to the TMDB forum to post about this and noticed a thread about "plagiarism" of plot descriptions from IMDB. Turns out the folks behind TMDB are eventually going to take all this user-contributed data and try to sell it (http://forums.themoviedb.org/post/1043/#p1043). Disallowing pasting from IMDB is a "CYA" move.
So that makes the uploading .nfo idea moot for me (since my .nfo's are generated from IMDB anyway), and anyway, I won't be contributing to TMDB any more. Apparently, they're worried about "stealing" content from IMDB but they're not worried about stealing it from you or me.
so exactly the same as imdb....
rwparris2
2009-02-09, 16:25
I won't be contributing to TMDB any more. Apparently, they're worried about "stealing" content from IMDB but they're not worried about stealing it from you or me.
You have a strange definition of stealing.
theophile
2009-02-09, 16:49
You have a strange definition of stealing.
No, they have a strange definition of stealing. User-submitted plot descriptions on IMDB remain the property of the contributors for Copyright purposes since those users authored them. I was told on the TMDB forum that it doesn't matter, it's still tantamount to stealing from them.
So if they're so concerned for intellectual property rights that even use-submitted plot descriptions can't be pasted, what am I supposed to think when they say that they are going to sell, without permission, my own Copyrighted plot descriptions that I author for TMDB?
Even the IMDB terms of use say that contributing information grants a commercial use license to IMDB. There is nothing on TMBD like that. At least IMDB is up front about the fact that they are going to derive a financial benefit by using data submitted by their users. TMBD is hiding the ball. They make it look like an open wiki-style database, but if that user "GBee" is correct (and he may not be), it's only a matter of time until they adopt a commercial model.
It's not that complicated. If I contribute data that I author and I do not grant them a license to make commercial use of my work, it's stealing if they then sell it anyway. Isn't it?
rwparris2
2009-02-09, 17:16
No, they have a strange definition of stealing. User-submitted plot descriptions on IMDB remain the property of the contributors for Copyright purposes since those users authored them. I was told on the TMDB forum that it doesn't matter, it's still tantamount to stealing from them.
So if they're so concerned for intellectual property rights that even use-submitted plot descriptions can't be pasted, what am I supposed to think when they say that they are going to sell, without permission, my own Copyrighted plot descriptions that I author for TMDB?
Even the IMDB terms of use say that contributing information grants a commercial use license to IMDB. There is nothing on TMBD like that. At least IMDB is up front about the fact that they are going to derive a financial benefit by using data submitted by their users. TMBD is hiding the ball. They make it look like an open wiki-style database, but if that user "GBee" is correct (and he may not be), it's only a matter of time until they adopt a commercial model.
It's not that complicated. If I contribute data that I author and I do not grant them a license to make commercial use of my work, it's stealing if they then sell it anyway. Isn't it?
You're right, I assumed tmdb had a TOS similar to imdb's that automatically grants tmdb a license to use user submitted content.
FWIW, I don't think they're doing anything wrong here... the site is still newish and from what I understand, the owners are probably new to this, and simply need to make users agree to their TOS when they register.
Asking users not to submit anything from IMDB so they can have all original content is their choice, regardless of the reasoning behind it.
theophile
2009-02-09, 17:21
Asking users not to submit anything from IMDB so they can have all original content is their choice, regardless of the reasoning behind it.
That's certainly true. I'm just pointing out that they do not appear to be fan-friendly wiki-style site that I thought they were. I had intended to start adding/updating movies on there as fast as possible in order to help build up an open alternative to IMDB. I've decided instead to just re-enable the IMDB scraper and use TMDB only for fanart.
rwparris2
2009-02-09, 17:35
That's certainly true. I'm just pointing out that they do not appear to be fan-friendly wiki-style site that I thought they were. I had intended to start adding/updating movies on there as fast as possible in order to help build up an open alternative to IMDB. I've decided instead to just re-enable the IMDB scraper and use TMDB only for fanart.
IMHO possibly licensing the info (according to a user, not a dev, as you pointed out before) to help hosting costs doesn't make it less friendly, but ah well, we all have our own opinions.
theophile
2009-02-09, 17:48
IMHO possibly licensing the info (according to a user, not a dev, as you pointed out before) to help hosting costs doesn't make it less friendly, but ah well, we all have our own opinions.
That's true too. I would not normally object to something like that. The reason I am all bent out of shape over this is because of the lecture they gave me about respecting people's intellectual property rights, even if it is just a user-contributed synopsis and even if there's a 0% chance of litigation over the issue. There's a glaring hypocrisy in being that concerned about the intellectual property rights of IMDB users, but not giving a crap about the same rights of TMDB users.
so exactly the same as imdb....Which leaves us XBMC users where? No imdb, not tmdb? What can we do? :sniffle:
Don't see a reason not to stay with tmdb. Even if they want to commercially sell the info someday I don't think they will forbid scraping/grabbing for non-commercial use - at least I would hope so. Would be quite ballsy to let the users fill their site and then afterwards change the terms of use to not allow scraping.
rwparris2
2009-02-09, 19:58
Which leaves us XBMC users where? No imdb, not tmdb? What can we do? :sniffle:
I think you miss understood what he was replying to.
jmarshall
2009-02-09, 23:22
As far as I'm aware, the content available at themoviedb.org is licensed to others under the CC-by-NC license v3:
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/3.0/
I agree that they need to clean up their site somewhat in this regard. When you add a movie you get a page that states:
Thank you for helping us to extend our movie database. All information on TMDb is licensed under the terms of the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 2.0 License. By adding a new movie you accept the terms of that license. More information can be found in the copyright section.
This is complicated by the fact that the links that the above quote contains are broken and, when fixed (replace ?page= with /), lead to pages written in german. Clearly there needs to be some work done to remedy this and make it clear to all contributors exactly what they're contributing too.
To address what theophile brought up on their forums:
In either case, you cannot take content from IMDb.com, or any other site and contribute it to TheMovieDB.org unless:
1. You own the copyright to it.
2. The license that the content is under allows it.
Simple as that. The IMDb data, therefore, only allows option 1, unless for whatever reason you can show it to be not covered by copyright law.
It looks like travis needs some work to tidy up the licensing problems. I'll contact him personally and see if there's anything we (team xbmc) can do to help in this regard.
Cheers,
Jonathan
So what happens if I copy the info right off the back of a DVD and submit it. In a way I am copying the work of the person who created the DVD right? I am reproducing it and posting it else where.
jmarshall
2009-02-09, 23:50
Possibly, yes. Whether or not it's covered under copyright law is up to a lawyer to decide.
It's probably best to rewrite it in your own words, with any other knowledge you've gleaned from watching the movie. I find that some of the blurb on the back of a DVD tends to be all marketing and no real content.
Cheers,
Jonathan
Man why can't we all get along. Good lord. Its going to come to the point where its harder to get the plot of a TV episode harder than actually getting the TV episode. ???
theophile
2009-02-10, 00:41
Man why can't we all get along. Good lord. Its going to come to the point where its harder to get the plot of a TV episode harder than actually getting the TV episode. ???
That was my point. Just copy the damn 3 sentences from IMDB and quit whining. But TMBD has commercial ambitions. They're the ones making it harder than it has to be.
billyad2000
2009-02-10, 13:43
I think there has been a slight overreaction here.
Another post on the TMDb forum from the same thread mentioned at the beginning of this thread states:-
Travis eventually aims to take this site commercial, giving companies access to the data in return for a fee which might help support the running costs
@theophile, i'm not sure what your issue is. From what you are saying, it is ok for a 3rd party company to use the "free" user created content available on TMDb in order to make money. Yet it's not ok for TMDb to get much needed funding from this same these companies.
It doesn't take much of an imagination to see that HTPCs are becoming increasingly common and the demand on resources such as TMDb is going to increase expedentially for some years to come. The cost to run and host TMDb will be enormous.
I think there does need to be some clarification by TVDb as to exactly what there plans are but I doubt there is anything to worry about, but you do need to realise that everything of value has a cost, and to expect the creators of TVDb to pay that cost as it grows, is only going to lead to the eventual demise of such a great resource. Some people might say that donations are sufficient but the unfortunate truth is that most people, given the option, will not donate.
Look at IMDB, for years I have rated it a fantastic (and free) resource, if IMDB had an open access API and hosted backdrops then there would be no need for TMDb, yet that would not change their business model at all.
Just because a website has commercial ambitions then it does not mean for a single minute that the content will not be free for non-commercial use. If someone is using TMDb to make money then why shouldn't they help towards the cost of the resource. Even TVDB have banners and ads on their pages, does this make it commercial, it could since many businesses are using this exact business model.
theophile
2009-02-10, 16:09
@theophile, i'm not sure what your issue is. From what you are saying, it is ok for a 3rd party company to use the "free" user created content available on TMDb in order to make money. Yet it's not ok for TMDb to get much needed funding from this same these companies.
My issue is that this is technically illegal. I had wanted to support TMDB and had intended to populate the db with every movie I could think of that wasn't already in there. I had intended to do this partly by finding the best synopsis on IMDB and copying it over. I found a thread on their forum in which there were some complaints about users doing this and I asked why its such a big deal. I was told that they were worried about copyright problems over the movie plot descriptions and it was suggested that I was not properly educated and that I had a poor moral foundation.
The point is this: as long as a website exists solely as a community resource that does not encourage illegal activity (i.e. piracy), copyright holders seldom make a big deal over it. Yet TMDB has designs on commercially licensing their content, which would mean that they're deriving a financial benefit from other people's copyrighted works, which is why they don't want to copy descriptions from IMDB.
But they're overlooking the fact that if copying descriptions form IMDB and selling the information is a violation of copyright, so is getting their iwn users to submit their own descriptions and selling them without permission.
Plus you have to consider the fact that all movie posters are intellectual property of the studio that created them, as are the screen captures that constitute at least half of the fanart on the site. Even the "original" fanart uses substantial amounts of copyrighted material. TMBD would not only need to get commercial usage licenses from all of its contributors (like IMDB does), they would need to have an agreement with the movie studios to sell access to their copyrighted movie posters and fanart content.
All that said, I do not personally care about any of this. I am just a bit peeved because of the way I was treated at the TMDB board and their selective approach to copyright law. If it were up to me, I'd spend the whole day copying and pasting from IMDB to TMDB. But as long as they're going to feign concern over copyright, might as well go all the way, no?
billyad2000
2009-02-10, 20:08
My issue is that this is technically illegal. I had wanted to support TMDB and had intended to populate the db with every movie I could think of that wasn't already in there. I had intended to do this partly by finding the best synopsis on IMDB and copying it over. I found a thread on their forum in which there were some complaints about users doing this and I asked why its such a big deal. I was told that they were worried about copyright problems over the movie plot descriptions and it was suggested that I was not properly educated and that I had a poor moral foundation.
The point is this: as long as a website exists solely as a community resource that does not encourage illegal activity (i.e. piracy), copyright holders seldom make a big deal over it. Yet TMDB has designs on commercially licensing their content, which would mean that they're deriving a financial benefit from other people's copyrighted works, which is why they don't want to copy descriptions from IMDB.
But they're overlooking the fact that if copying descriptions form IMDB and selling the information is a violation of copyright, so is getting their iwn users to submit their own descriptions and selling them without permission.
Plus you have to consider the fact that all movie posters are intellectual property of the studio that created them, as are the screen captures that constitute at least half of the fanart on the site. Even the "original" fanart uses substantial amounts of copyrighted material. TMBD would not only need to get commercial usage licenses from all of its contributors (like IMDB does), they would need to have an agreement with the movie studios to sell access to their copyrighted movie posters and fanart content.
All that said, I do not personally care about any of this. I am just a bit peeved because of the way I was treated at the TMDB board and their selective approach to copyright law. If it were up to me, I'd spend the whole day copying and pasting from IMDB to TMDB. But as long as they're going to feign concern over copyright, might as well go all the way, no?
I've got to agree that I don't understand the sudden concern over copyright issues, particularly the removal of the IMDB scraper from XBMC. While I am no legal expert, it would appear to me that most of the sites scraped by XBMC have T&C's that forbid the use of scrapers. And it is true that even those sites that give permission (TVDB & TMDb etc) host a great deal of copyrighted material without the authors permission.
I also agree that some of the people posting on the TMDb thread were out of order, accusing particular users of plagiarism is just plain ridiculous aswell as rude. Plagiarism is not copyright infringement and none of those people were claiming that the plots submitted were there own creation so plagiarism does not apply. The copyright of such work could potentially be an issue, but while I have little knowledge of the legal ins and outs of copyright, the IMDB T&Cs seem to say that the information is free for use, and even provide a free FTP link where you can download its entire DB.
Just try to remember that TMDb is a good resource we would also be worse off without it, and those who's efforts populate it.
theophile
2009-02-11, 01:15
Just try to remember that TMDb is a good resource we would also be worse off without it, and those who's efforts populate it.
I agree wholeheartedly. That's the main reason that I would like to be able to contribute to it without having to dream up an original plot description that I could file with the U.S. Copyright office.
Steve_McQueen
2009-02-11, 09:44
I also agree that some of the people posting on the TMDb thread were out of order, accusing particular users of plagiarism is just plain ridiculous aswell as rude.
I was told that they were worried about copyright problems over the movie plot descriptions and it was suggested that I was not properly educated and that I had a poor moral foundation.
All that said, I do not personally care about any of this. I am just a bit peeved because of the way I was treated at the TMDB board and their selective approach to copyright law. If it were up to me, I'd spend the whole day copying and pasting from IMDB to TMDB. But as long as they're going to feign concern over copyright, might as well go all the way, no?
We are talking about one ordinary member on a forum. ONE.
Try contacting Travis or any of the actual creators before getting to worked up. I'm not saying your concern might not be legit, just that you are jumping the gun a little.
Taking every single posts on forums to heart will make it explode. :;):
McQ
travisbell
2009-02-11, 10:21
Hahahahaha... I like how all of this went on without ANY of my chiming in yet.
1) Whichever one of you guys said I was going to be the same as IMDb, you are very wrong. The only thing that's been said on an official basis was that to license the API commercially, you'd likely have to pay for the luxury. It actually has nothing to do with the data at all, and more just to use the service.
2) Yes, there's some licensing issues I need to work out. Jonathan has kindly donated some time to help me figure this out, and I will be sure to do so. Everything will stay as Creative Commons though, I can assure you that.
3) As I mentioned here: http://forums.themoviedb.org/topic/297/the-state-of-tmdb-in-2009/ I have full intentions on fixing a lot of this stuff up. We've been experiencing some pretty intense traffic as of late so I've been busy just making our infrastructure faster and more able to handle everything.
4) Since this project is done by nobody but volunteers, some of this will take a while. I will be throwing a donation link up sometime soon and hopefully we'll be able to generate *a little* bit of a regular amount of money to pay for hosting and other infrastructure costs.
5) Uploading data via a .nfo, or other bulk uploader type system is something I'd love to do but the system isn't totally designed to work like that which is why it's a lot more work than it seems. It's on the list though, no worries.
Does all that sound better?
Hahahahaha... I like how all of this went on without ANY of my chiming in yet.
1) Whichever one of you guys said I was going to be the same as IMDb, you are very wrong. The only thing that's been said on an official basis was that to license the API commercially, you'd likely have to pay for the luxury. It actually has nothing to do with the data at all, and more just to use the service.
2) Yes, there's some licensing issues I need to work out. Jonathan has kindly donated some time to help me figure this out, and I will be sure to do so. Everything will stay as Creative Commons though, I can assure you that.
3) As I mentioned here: http://forums.themoviedb.org/topic/297/the-state-of-tmdb-in-2009/ I have full intentions on fixing a lot of this stuff up. We've been experiencing some pretty intense traffic as of late so I've been busy just making our infrastructure faster and more able to handle everything.
4) Since this project is done by nobody but volunteers, some of this will take a while. I will be throwing a donation link up sometime soon and hopefully we'll be able to generate *a little* bit of a regular amount of money to pay for hosting and other infrastructure costs.
5) Uploading data via a .nfo, or other bulk uploader type system is something I'd love to do but the system isn't totally designed to work like that which is why it's a lot more work than it seems. It's on the list though, no worries.
Does all that sound better?
Sounds good, that should calm people down here.
Hopefully API access will be affordable for us little folks doing utility applications.
travisbell
2009-02-11, 22:37
Sounds good, that should calm people down here.
Hopefully API access will be affordable for us little folks doing utility applications.
If your project is free, open source or community driven then yes, FREE should be affordable enough.
If you're looking at making a living off an app that uses TMDb's API then we can talk but I don't suspect there's that many. ~130 API devs and I've only had one commercial request so far (didn't work out anyways).
That's the great thing about this community, we're all here donating our time for nothing but a better product.