View Full Version : What limits HD video on the Xbox? Is this a work around?
Is it the processor or is it just not enough memory? The reason I ask is this, assuming that movie files would be stored on a different computer on your personal network. If the xbox is just lacking the processing power to decode 720p and 1080i and display it couldn't someone design an app that would let the computer that is hosting the files do the processing (or possibly some of the processing) and stream it to the xbox where the xbox would just be dealing with displaying the video. Granted the speed of your network and of the computer hosting the files would have an effect but to simplify things lets assume a wired network. Is this possible? Feasible? I would think so but I do not have a background in programing.
If the problem is just not enough memory then I don't know if this would make any difference. I wonder if you could use a flash drive like a vista uses for drive speed to extend the memory of the xbox. It would be slower memory then the RAM but could it be fast enough to work? What about if it was large enough to act like a huge cache where the xbox would take a few min to process and fill the flash drive and then play directly off that. I think that may be a bit far fetched but I figured, while I am free thinking why not throw that out there.
"PS! It is not the RAM that is the bootleneck on the Xbox, (128MB is plenty good), it is firstly the CPU that is the bootleneck, and secondly the GPU. So IMHO you are better of spending your money on an HTPC computer to run XBMC for Linux on." - Gamester17 @ http://xbmc.org/forum/showthread.php?t=35477&highlight=xbox+gpu
I guess it isn't the memory that is a problem.
I suppose you could transcode the videos on the computer in order to stream high quality files on the xbox but as far as I know there isn't a program to do that yet and it's highly unlikely anyone would make one as the xbox is dying off and making a linux machine isn't that expensive.
The xbox can play 720p files. It maxes it out but it can do it. The biggest problem is it can't handle the h264 codec (essentially any .mkv files) and most 720p content is in that format. 1080p can't be done at all. If you really want to play 720p files on the xbox you could just manually reencode your files to divx if you really wanted but it's not worth the effort IMO. It still might jerk during the odd high action scene. Your time would be better spent making a linux box I think.
yeah but linux box = $$$ even a cheap one will run over $300 and really will be closer to $600 to be worthwhile. I wonder if a current trans coding program could be modified or have a plugin that would allow this. Isn't that how pimp streamer works on the PSP or does that have the PSP doing all the work?
http://www.pimpware.org/?page_id=9
Do any programmers want to chime in here?
SneakerElph
2008-10-13, 06:34
Raw HDTV streams are pretty high bitrate. MPEG2 (which is the worst/easiest on the processor form of compression a Blu-Ray disc can use) is 54 mbits. Assuming your wired network is 100mbits (that's all the xbox supports, IIRC), that could feasibly be enough bandwidth. I don't know if the xbox can decode MPEG2 at 54 mbits, but if you were giving it the raw stream of HD material the bitrate would be several times that. Transcoding would be a burden on the home computer.
Linux PC's are way more viable than this sort of transcoding for HD material. It's simply not worth the man-power it would take to develop a program like that for PC's so that a dying platform can play some HD video files. I've priced out a very nice Linux box (acutally i might install vista instead for blu-ray) for just about $300 on newegg. That's cheap. I think I'm going to purchase it soon.
nubz69,
I know you are a noob but this has been talked about at GREAT length over the past few years...
Mod please move this thread or close.
nubz69, we'll all be sad to see development stop but the Xbox just hasn't got the grunt needed to decode HD.... no memory upgrade, Trusty's CPU upgrade or transcoding will ever change that.... I dont think even the 128Mb, 1.4Ghz DreamX owned by a few people on here can decode it.
"Transcoding would be a burden on the home computer." - Exactly what I am talking about!! Why not let your computer take a chunk of the brunt work. This has been done before with pimp streamer (http://www.pimpware.org/?page_id=9) as well as I have seen somewhere else online (a while ago) where a video was streamed to play on a apple II (http://www.calormen.com/vnIIc/)
Livin I am not finding anything like this while searching could you direct me to some posts? There are some posts that might be related distantly but none on this subject. Is there an Archive that I am not searching? I may not be a programmer but I am far from a noob when it comes to audio/video technology.
Geeba - The concept I am proposing would, hopefully, make it so the xbox would be able to do more with less grunt. Rather then have the xbox do the hardwork of decoding h.264 your PC would do that and either send the decoded information as is or send it in a format that the xbox is much better at decoding (less compression = faster decoding). Another way it could work could be some type of load sharing between the two. The PC does the bulk of the processing and the xbox does some processing and dispays the video. Kind of like how some clusters work but I think that would be beyond what anyone on here would want to try to do.
Another way to possibly look at it would be to use the xbox as a video output for your PC.
I understand none of this may come to fruition but intelligent discussion is always useful even if it is not immediately apparent.
Hell this could even possibly be used with appleTV, which performance wise is not far from the xbox, to help increase it's performance.
SneakerElph
2008-10-14, 10:23
I understand that this would theoretically be a way to allow the xbox to display HD (720p+) video on a computer, but at that point you're really just using the xbox to display the PC on a TV, which is acomplished in much simpler and easier ways than the transcoding of video (which is going to be lossy).
It's possible, but it's just not worth the trouble.
Well I have a brute of a PC and plenty of Xboxes... and I'd be willing to help do testing but I have no idea of how to connect to a stream from the pimpware software... if you can get anyone with the know-how interested I'd be supprised. but hey fingers crossed. :)
I am going to email the creator of pimp streamer and see if he has any insight.
Gamester17
2008-10-15, 17:33
See: http://xbmc.org/wiki/?title=XBMC_Features_and_Supported_Formats/Codecs#Xbox_supported_video_formats_and_resolution s
Conclusion = buy a HTPC if you want non-upscaling high-definition playback (or settle for standard-definition with upscaling on the Xbox).
One question though, what limits the xbox or htpc if you have access to a nas running ftp or something.
Can you stream from the ftp? How much upload will it take...
Cause I have like 4 xbox'es around different places, would be sweet to be able to stream to them.
Any guides, links and such is appreciated... Would be sweet with real HD.
I think this is what nubz is looking into.... connecting to the stream is the problem for me... like I said I have a horse power PC and plenty of xboxes to test with so happy to help on that front...
postbusjj
2008-10-16, 16:32
One question though, what limits the xbox or htpc if you have access to a nas running ftp or something.
Comparing apples and oranges... hmm you can high spec your network as you want but the limit is where it goes and comes from. The XBOX ethernet connection is in my view is the 1st bottleneck, it will never go faster. 2nd the CPU is the second hurdle. You'll never get a problem free HD setup. Look at all the different encoded HD content available not optimized for the XBOX. I don't say you can, but then you have a day to day work to maintaining it and I don't think that's the basis for having fun with a media-center. Wrt NAS, check Freenas, but I suggest stick to CIFS (SMB).
dickydick1969
2008-10-17, 00:41
Hi all, got an email... I am the developer of pimpstreamer, which streams transcoded video content to the psp.
I have a XBMC xbox, use it heavely to watch SMB based content for the kids.
If I wanted to make a Xbox pimpstreamer port, where can I look for a decent XBOX toolchain/sdk? (pref. linux based)
postbusjj... I'm not trying to compare these things, but by looking around, I do find some minimum requirments for, maybe a laptop running xbmc.
Anywho, I have a qnap 409 pro - Are there any other way to share media, than ftp via ip - meaning, the xbmc is at one location, the nas some other place.
But by ftp, you can't pause and stuff, as I've read - Is there another way to share media through internet??
Sorry if it's OT!
Dickydick1969... good to have you on board!!!! I'm happy to do some testing if needed...
If you can stream HD content to an Xbox and squirt it out at 720p you will make a HUGE amount of XBMC users VERY happy! :)
do the maths. you'll very soon realize this is simply not doable. the xbox cant even decode 720p in mpeg2 reliably, and simple huffyuv will not suffice. give it up already.
Dicky, because microsoft owns the development kit you have to hunt for it. You can find it on torrent sites pretty easily though.
I don't know if this would help at all but
http://xbmc.org/forum/showthread.php?t=24013
if we could do this with pimp stream real time that would be awesome.
Can I throw out another idea? I know that the hi-def enthusiasts will label this heresy, but what about simply downconverting HD content to 480P anamorphic? If the main goal is to offer "better than standard def" televison content, IMHO 480P anamorphic offers a noticeable PQ improvement over standard-def TV content. The difference between 480P anamorphic and 720P is much more subtle (again, IMHO).
I've read a lot of threads on this subject, and it seems to be an "all or nothing" discussion. People want HD content with the simplicity/affordability/flexibility of XBMC running on an XBox, but everyone says that HD can't be done on an XBox, so you have to make due with a PC or some other option. Am I the only one who thinks that 480P anamorphic could be "good enough"? So my questions is this:
What's the easiest method for automatically/quickly downconverting HDTV content to a 480P anamorphic format that the XBox w/XBMC will play? Would you use Windows Media Center to record the shows and a separate program (running in the background) to downconvert (and to what format exactly?)? Or would Orb be the way to go?
What about the TiVo HD box? I've got one arriving soon and would be interested in having a program run on my computer, searching my networked TiVo HD for newly recorded content and downconverting it to 480P anamorphic. Is there something available that would do that?
Scott that actually is a pretty good idea and sounds useful. In fact it seems like just an extension of my idea but instead of trying to bring the video to a level where the xbox is being pushed to it's max it would be pushed to a more reasonable and possibly more accessible level to most.
I've actually been very successful at downconverting H264 720p TV shows from 1280x720 to 1056x594 XVID, which is about halfway between 720p and 480p. I've found this to be the maximum resolution the XBOX can support for 16x9 content.
I use the following tools to make this conversion:
- tsMuxerGUI 1.8.4 (to convert from .MKV to .TS)
- DGAVCIndex 1.0.2 (to create .DGA file and extract .AC3 audio)
- VirtualDubMod 1.5.10.2 to convert to XVID and mux the AC3 stream
- The ColorMatrix.dll, Decomb.dll and DGAVCDecode.dll AVS Plugins in the .avs file opened by VirtualDub
Conversion takes about 2 hours for a 1 hour TV show.
I get a few dropped frames, but it looks great on my 50" Plasma TV. Better than progressive DVD, not as good as 720p HDTV.
mcowher, so do you have this conversion process automated in any way, or do you have to do this all manually? That would be a definite deal-killer for me. I think the ideal situation for me would be to have a cablecard tuner hooked up to a PC with the PC saving the programs in a downconverted 480P anamorphic (or possibly even 720P) format. For XBox compatibility, I would imagine that a low-CPU intensive format like DiVX would probably be best.
I believe that SnapStream's BeyondTV app might be the most accommodating for this sort of thing, except that I'm fairly certain that cablecard compatibility is out, and while I *think* you can set it to record shows in DiVX format, I don't know how much control you have to set it to whatever resolution you want, so it might end up still being too CPU-intensive for XBox compatibility. Anyone have any experience with that?
No, it's not automated, but it fairly simple, with a handful of easy to follow steps.
No, it's not automated, but it fairly simple, with a handful of easy to follow steps.
I would love if you could write a simple guide a person could follow?