XBMC Linux port questions and answers... [Archive]

Gamester17

2007-05-09, 16:30

These questions goes out to Yuvalt however if anyone else care to fill me in then please do:

Question-1: I read that you deviced not to change all the Win32 API calls, but rather implement them in Linux. How do you handle that? Have you implemeneted a re-usable wrapper or common library based on code from the WINE project (http://www.winehq.org), or? if not (yet) would that be good idea (to borrow code or library parts from the WINE project (http://www.winehq.org))?

Question-2: How do you handle DirectX API calls (2D/3D video, sound, input devices, etc.), have/will you implement those in Linux or SDL or change them in XBMC? Again maybe add a wrapper from selected code parts or libraries from the WINE project (http://www.winehq.org)? There are also other open source projects with related wrappers like for example http://sourceforge.net/projects/dxglwrap/ (a DirectX to OpenGL wrapper), though the WINE project (http://www.winehq.org) is probebely more up-to-date(?).

Question-3: Does the OpenGL renderer handle overlay for video (overlay texture like for example the menu on top of video)

Question-4: How do/will you now handle multiple output modules/renderers (auto-detect or static on build)? By the way, please keep API open for future Video Acceleration possibilities (for GPU assisted video decoding).

Question-5: How do you handle the skin texture compression format? can the same packed/compressed xpr skin-files be used under both Linux and Xbox/Win32? If not should we plan to migra to a other texture compression format that can be compatible under all operating-system and be decompressed/unpacked xpr using both DirectX and OpenGL?

Questsion-6: How do you handle the out the multiple modules (ALSA vs. OSS vs. DirectX DirectSound? auto-detect or static on build, or does SDL handle it?

Question-7: How well does the DLL loader in XBMC handle loading players such as paplayer, mplayer and the dvdplayer under Linux? Does the players (or the DLL loader) have to be modified or can they be loaded 'as is' under Linux? Maybe a common Win32 registry emulator is needed as well?

Question-8: Have you already implemened IR (infrared) remote support under Linux?, if not may I recommend Lirc (http://www.lirc.org) and Wlirc (http://winlirc.sourceforge.net) (maybe add as a library/module to libSDL?). If possible maybe even replace the Xbox IR library (from the XDK) with a ported version of lirc/wlirc to stay consistant across platforms.

Questions-9: Have you already looked into using Valgrind (http://valgrind.org) for debugging under Linux? (see http://valgrind.org and http://wiki.winehq.org/Wine_and_Valgrind). It can probebely help find memeory-leak bugs, etc. indirectly for XBMC on the Xbox as well, (ie. fix them for Linux and they will be fixed on the Xbox and Win32 as well).

Question-10: Have you/we decided on any Linux porting guide-lines?, like for example:
* Code documentation (DocBook, rst, or doxygen for the code documentation steps)
* Modular design (independent modules made upp by localized/isolated code libraries without dependcies)
**XBMC should still compile and run if a module is disabled/removed
* Cross-platform / cross-compiling; aim to compile and run on at least, Xbox, Win32 (Windows XP) and Linux
* Aim for the GUI/interface to run smoothly on a low spec computer (less than 1Ghz)
* Avoid harddisk trashing (access read/write), utilize RAM memory, no harddrive paging. Aim to run on Solid-State (CompactFlash)
* Fast load and boot times for end-user perception (other thing can still run/start in the background without the user knowledge)
**15-seconds or less from when the end user press the power-button on the computer til he/she can browse the GUI

PS! Great stuff with the Linux port so far, keept it up :cool:

yuvalt

2007-05-09, 20:50

Gamester! Great to have you back... long time no see :;):

Regarding your questions:
1. No, we have implemented by ourself the missing functionality. I looked into the Wine source (and in fact ran the Win32 skinning tool with Wine). One thing I can say - Wine is a big mess and I couldn't actually take anything from there since the code is so complex.

2. We didn't implement DirectX, instead we ported all the GUI stuff under guilib to SDL. We are still uncertain of the performance of this and we may end up porting the code again to OpenGL (although I doubt we'll do it). Again, I looked into Wine and it was extremely complicated.

3. We didn't implement this yet. We are still discussing what's the right thing to do and how to do all the conversions efficiently.

4. As I said video rendering is not done yet. We will need to look into Xv which is the X11 extension for video output, which is accelerated to some extent for NVidia and ATI.

5. Just ported the XPR unpacking code. Nothing too much about it.

6. Currently we use SDL_mixer but this is for the GUI sound. I think SDL_mixer uses ALSA. We'll need to see if this is enough, especially for digital output.

7. Still not implemented.

8. That is my plan as well. From looking into lirc, all I can say is that is quite complicated.

9. I used it once to find a memory leak and it indeed worked. Some devs use Kdevelop, which is integrated with Valgrind.

We have not decided on any guidelines. I think we are currently experimenting. So far the GUI seems a bit slow since it's really build to be run with 3D acceleration. We will either need to disable some features or support OpenGL or both.

One of my goals is to have this run from a USB flash memory with paging disabled.

Gamester17

2007-05-09, 22:37

Very cool! I apologize for all the newbie questions, just very exited about the future potential this inititive could bring, so got a few more:

How about creating a sandbox (isolated runtime enviroment) which XBMC can play in alone so it does not mess with other applications running on the same system. The good thing about that is that it will proactivly solve many future compatibitiy issues, on the other hand it would limited the possibility of XBMC interacting with other software application and hardware devices (unless a function is specificly opened/created for that purpose, which as example it should be for the My Program section by default to allow it to launch other executables/programs). This would create like a virtual system and that combined with SDL will make the envioment very close to the Xbox platform and thus make development easier as the sandbox looks and is limited the same way on all systems with the same parameters.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandbox_%28computer_security%29

Kind of like an game-console emulator, the hardware underneath does not matter for debugging as all 'ROMS' uses the same libraries. Maybe even checkout the unfinished Xbox emulator for ideas, (now I'm not suggestion to copy that stright off, I mearly refering to the concept of running everything within a virtual machine)
http://www.caustik.com/cxbx/

An alternative to a sandbox could be to limited the hardware platform that end-user will be allowed to use, like the Xbox 360, PS3, AppleTV, and/or one chipset like VIA Embedded serie of EPIA motherboards
http://www.via.com.tw/en/products/mainboards/
http://www.via.com.tw/en/products/embedded/

Question-4: How do/will you now handle multiple output modules/renderers (auto-detect or static on build)? By the way, please keep API open for future Video Acceleration possibilities (for GPU assisted video decoding).4. As I said video rendering is not done yet. We will need to look into Xv which is the X11 extension for video output, which is accelerated to some extent for NVidia and ATI.I hadly know anything about Linux (I always been a Microsoft Windows user) so I probebely not comment on this, however I will but I hope you will excuse my ignorance (I am probebely completly wrong here): Maybe it is my missunderstanding based on the screenshot you posted in a other thread showing XBMC GUI running under X Window System (Linux graphical interface, commonly X11 or X); if you are aiming for fast initial startup from a cold power-on boot then isn't X bloat when you will normaly only be running the XBMC GUI in full screen as the sole application running on the computer? I mean you will you have to run X to run XBMC on Linux?, should it not be able to load/run directly the command line? According to wikipedia.org Xv (X video extension) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xv) is outdated today and has not been updated updated since December 1994(?)

Question-7: How well does the DLL loader in XBMC handle loading players such as paplayer, mplayer and the dvdplayer under Linux? Does the players (or the DLL loader) have to be modified or can they be loaded 'as is' under Linux? Maybe a common Win32 registry emulator is needed as well?Still not implemented.Emulation of the Xbox DirectX functions may also be interesting for the .vis (visualizations) and .scr (screensavers ) DLLs to be able to run them 'as in' under Windows, (not sure if this DirectX to OpenGL wrapper could be of any help there; http://sourceforge.net/projects/dxglwrap/). Alternativly rewrite each of those induvidual visualizations/screensavers DDLs so that they also support OpenGL (and can detect which type of platform they are running on).

Question-8: Have you already implemened IR (infrared) remote support under Linux?, if not may I recommend Lirc (http://www.lirc.org) and Wlirc (http://winlirc.sourceforge.net) (maybe add as a library/module to libSDL?). If possible maybe even replace the Xbox IR library (from the XDK) with a ported version of lirc/wlirc to stay consistant across platforms.That is my plan as well. From looking into lirc, all I can say is that is quite complicated.Would it be best to implement it through the SDL library, (building it into a plugin module/extention), so that lirc/wlirc talks only to SDL and then translate/parse it to XBMC (so that XBMC do not have to talk directly to lirc/wlirc)?

So far the GUI seems a bit slow since it's really build to be run with 3D acceleration. We will either need to disable some features or support OpenGL or both.I believe OpenGL (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opengl)can accelerate both 2D and 3D.
http://www.libsdl.org/opengl/index.php
http://www.libsdl.org/cgi/docwiki.cgi/Using_20OpenGL_20With_20SDL?action=highlight&value=opengl
However according to wikipedia.org, also Xv feature hardware scaling and YUV acceleration (2D hardware acceleration), Xv also XVideo feature hardware overlays, and XvMC support motion compensation and iDTC for video decoding.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X_video_extension
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XvMC

:grin:

Gamester17

2007-05-09, 22:52

Slightly of topic; would it be a good idea to implement SDL in XBMC_PC (XBMC for Win32) in the same way for consistancy?

spiff

2007-05-10, 14:33

opengl can only do 3d. opengl es can do 2d as well.

however that's not a big issue at all - after all we use direct3d already on the xbox.

yes xv is nice, however xv will be the equivalent of using the hardware overlay renderer on the xbox now - no transparencies.

stickman

2007-05-11, 05:11

I've built and tested what's ready so far and I'm astonished you managed to get this thing working.

Even though it doesn't do anything so far, it looks promising. I neve though I'd see the xbmc interface working in a computer.

I'll be building it everyday to check for improvements. I think it's really worth it :)

dogk1cker

2007-05-11, 05:30

This is AWESOME, even if I am the last one to say it. I give my toast and will further drink to these guys. If they ran for president, I'd vote for them!

Ok, since my sucking up is done I can offer some humble requests/opinions. First, I really like my xbox and the major reason is that it is an appliance. I push a button and it turns on and the OS doesn't get infected or needs patching every other day. Technically, it's a static hardware state and all the insides are all the same from one to another xbox. Now we are all looking for the XBMC 2 platform.

I am a lover of linux but I dread the fact that I'd have to build another machine and find all the required hardware including the HDMI card(which is a must). Seems to me, to further continue the appliance idea with all the necessary components in one nice package, it should be another gaming platform or the iTV.

Whatever you guys choose, it should have HDMI because that's what I am missing from the current xbox running XBMC. But, looking at the options the iTV is the cheapest of the appliance solutions. The only draw back is that you can't play hacked games on it. For me, I bought my 6 Xboxs' so I could put XBMC on it, not to play games.

Love me or flame me.. I am stickin to it!

Dogk1cker
------------------
-Dooood you take my bone?!

jmarshall

2007-05-11, 06:30

I neve though I'd see the xbmc interface working in a computer.

It's been on win32 for ages :p

But yeah, great progress has been made by yuvalt + vulkanr.

Cheers,
Jonathan

yuvalt

2007-05-11, 09:52

I am a lover of linux but I dread the fact that I'd have to build another machine and find all the required hardware including the HDMI card(which is a must). Seems to me, to further continue the appliance idea with all the necessary components in one nice package, it should be another gaming platform or the iTV.

That's exactly what I had in mind. I thought we build a computer built on top of something like the Fatality F-i90HD which has everything on boad and develop some kind of live CD or USB memory that one can just boot from without any installation.

-Yuval

Geeba

2007-05-11, 10:44

Hmm... I dunno... think I'm dreadding the thought of this in some ways? Less xbox development.... swapping my xbox that is pretty much silent and works fantastically well for possably a bulky PC back in the lounge with untold hardware variations or if it goes to Sony which I hate possably more than M$.. for the way they have their own expensive version of everything.. (how can they still be selling a 8 year old console for £100!!!) Guess the Atv would be good... but no disk player and I cant see Mr Jobs going down without a fight with the hackers... :eek:

Still things change I guess.

Gamester17

2007-05-11, 12:03

xv will be the equivalent of using the hardware overlay renderer on the xbox now - no transparencies.Bummer!, what other options/libraries are there available that also support transparencies?

I thought we build a computer built on top of something like the Fatality F-i90HDThough I agree that limiting the 'new' hardware platform for the Linux port is probebely the best way to go, as if everyone use the same 'static' hardware platform it will help developers debug problem and optimize the code. However I'm not sure I agree that a normal x86 motherboard such as the (Fatality F-i90HD) is the way to go in the long run; sure such motherboard probebely give you a lot processing power and bang for you buck, however the lifecycle of normal motherboard models are not that very long. Instead if you want to go for longetivity then we should look into VIA Embedded (http://www.via.com.tw/en/products/embedded/) serie of EPIA motherboards (http://www.via.com.tw/en/products/mainboards/), they are a little more expensive but it is a very tightly controlled platform which will benifit the developers, (and the VIA EPIA/EDEN community (http://www.viaarena.com) is has and offer a great wast array of tools, source code (including drivers) (http://www.viaarena.com/default.aspx?PageID=5&ArticleID=376), help and support. ...other modern tightly controlled platforms are Xbox 360, PS3 and AppleTV but those are not as open or as supported by the manufacturer as VIA's embedded platform.

I'm dreadding the thought of this in some ways? Less xbox development.... swapping my xbox that is pretty much silent and works fantastically well for possably a bulky PC back in the lounge with untold hardware variations or if it goes to Sony which I hate possably more than M$.. for the way they have their own expensive version of everything.. (how can they still be selling a 8 year old console for £100!!!) Guess the Atv would be good... but no disk player and I cant see Mr Jobs going down without a fight with the hackers.We are not talking about a fork (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fork_%28software_development%29) to separate the Linux port from the Xbox code version, we are talking about making a cross-platform (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross_platform) XBMC which mean that the same core code will build/compile for both Xbox and Linux (and Win32). So in the future when for an example a developer adds a feature/function to the GUI then that same feature/function is 'automaticly' implemented for all operating-systems/platforms that XBMC can be compiled for. To futher understand this concept you can take a look at VLC (VideoLAN) (http://www.videolan.org) which is a good example of a cross-platform media-player.

As for bulky and untold hardware variations please see my comments/suggetions above about limiting support to the VIA Embedded platform, and also my previous suggestion about creating a sandbox bubble for the XBMC application to run alone in.

spiff

2007-05-11, 12:13

if we want transparencies we'll do the same as we do on the xbox now - we'll use a pixel shader to do the csc (i.e. the equivalent of the current rgb renderers).

Gamester17

2007-05-11, 12:50

I'm told the that next Mac mini from Apple (http://www.apple.com/macmini/) that they said will come out in October this year will be built on Intel Santa Rosa chipset (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centrino#Santa_Rosa_platform_.282007.29) (with integrated DirectX 10 graphics) and feature a HDMI/HDCP output port (that supports 1080p). If so then that Mac mini would also make a nice 'static' hardware platform for XBMC if it will run Linux nativly, as that version will feature built-in; Intel x86 Core 2 Duo CPU, DVD-ROM/±RW drive, 2,5" harddrive, 1GB network-port, 802.11n wireless-network, Bluetooth 2.0+EDR, optical digital audio out/in, and even a remote control. All that in a 5.08cm (high) x 16.51cm (wide) x 16.51cm (deep) case. Sure that will come at a high price, probebely even higher than a complete computer based on a VIA EPIA motherboard with the same specifications (with the exception of the processor which is slower on EPIA). Apple Mac computers also have a long lifecycle (meaning the manufacture and sell the same model for many years), and even though I would prefer it in black I have to admit it is a beautiful design, timeless. ...so maybe by the time that new Mac mini comes out this fall it might also be time to lock-down support of the XBMC Linux port to one platform (that is, if it has matured enough to merit full support to all end-users). Anyways, dreaming is nice.

pike

2007-05-11, 13:07

I just did a little investigating on the EPIA stuff
Seems like CL266 (or something similar sounding) is the currently latest chipset for these boards. They are not workhorses, I'd go out on a limb and say they don't have much better performance than a Xbox1

Gamester17

2007-05-11, 14:25

I just did a little investigating on the EPIA stuff: Seems like CL266 (or something similar sounding) is the currently latest chipset for these boards. They are not workhorses, I'd go out on a limb and say they don't have much better performance than a Xbox1CL266 is an older/outdated model, but you are correct that they are not workhorses in the sence of generic x86 CPU processing power, however the newer models such as the EPIA EX motherboard models (http://www.via.com.tw/en/products/mainboards/motherboards.jsp?motherboard_id=450) based on the CX700M2 (http://www.via.com.tw/en/products/chipsets/c-series/cx700m/) chipset like the EX15000G which features a VIA C7 x86 1.5Ghz GPU (and up to 1GB RAM) (http://www.logicsupply.com/product_info.php/cPath/78_93/products_id/696) sure got more resource power to call than the old Xbox. The integrated graphic can assist in decoding MPEG-2, MPEG-4 ASP, VC-1 (WMV9) at 1080p. But I read though that VIA is comming out with new embedded chipsets and EPIA motherboard models this fall which will also be able to decode MPEG-4 AVC (H.264) at 1080p and feature HDMI/HDCP output ports. VIA also provide something they call "VIA Media SDK" for Linux and Windows with libraries/code to allow easy access to such functions as GPU accelerated video decoding, etc.

More EPIA information:
http://www.via.com.tw/en/downloads/brochures/mainboards/07_catalogue_q2.pdf
http://www.viaarena.com
http://www.epiacenter.com
http://www.logicsupply.com

Anyhow, I guess it is really moot for us to decide on a definite platform already when a mature version of the XBMC Linux port is probebely many months away(?), and new hardware technology and products continue to be announced almost every week, but it is always fun to speculate and dream.

ashlar

2007-05-11, 14:28

Whatever you guys choose, it should have HDMI because that's what I am missing from the current xbox running XBMC. DVI gives the same exact result, down to offering HDCP support if you would need it for whatever reason. Unless you have an HDMI receiver, in which case it could transport sound as well but, for me, that's really not a big deal.

Gamester17

2007-05-11, 16:35

mace

2007-05-11, 20:38

Even if it is way to early to decide on hardware I would like to point out one benefit of the EPIA series. The Eden E-series are fanless boards. This would open the possibility for a really silent box using a 2.5" drive and an eden board.

skruven

2007-05-12, 16:20

Under linux it's easy to make a wrapper using "rarfs" to get this working. I use this with Freevo to make mplayer play media files within rar archives.

It means you have to play using some filesystem mount, so no ccxstream or alike.

Today i use a smb-share to stream my rar-archives from my fileserver. Im just happy if I can continue with that on another platform. :)

I just hope that this feature will be integrated in the port when its finished.

_max_

2007-05-13, 01:37

i don't belive its a good idea to use a Fatality motherboard as a base for XBMC, why? well its bloated, it will probably not be sold after 6 months (and you will then have to support yet another platform (with other errors and bugs). The good thing about the xbox is thats its been pretty static from day one. Going with a game-console or other settop box thats likely to be sold for another 5-10 years is more likely the best option. Who wants a huge buzzing machine in there living room?

The apple-tv or mac-mini seem to be very good candidates, both are "pretty" cheep, apple-tv even has a h264 decoder onboard (nice for watching x264/h264 content) and have wlan etc for those people who wanna risk using that. Sure Apple-tv doesn't have a huge harddrive onboard but im guessing most people use an external server anyway and stream via smb.

Comparing the mac-mini and appletv against a complete computer,

price: apple-tv (300 bucks?), computer atleast 1000 bucks.
noise: apple-tv (no fans..), computer..cpu, psu, gpu, hdd cooling..
space: apple-tv is the size of a dvd-case.. a computer is huge in comparison.
speed: apple-tv 1ghz but onboard h264 decoder, a computer you can upgrade.

id say apple-tv wins 3 to 1 :)

I'v orderd a apple-tv today, im asof writing creating a LFS distro that will support ONLY apple-tv hardware for ultrafast booting that XBMC can be loaded onto. (using USB boot on apple-tv wont void the warrenty)

t029248

2007-05-13, 01:59

szsori

2007-05-13, 08:42

Who wants a huge buzzing machine in there living room?
I have a HTPC that I use in a different room instead of my Xbox. It actually runs quieter than the Xbox. Not saying it's silent, but it's far more easy to customize a PC to make it silent than customizing a console or STB.

price: apple-tv (300 bucks?), computer atleast 1000 bucks.
A computer that's just sufficient to decode h264 content can be found for far less than $1000. Shuttle has really high end stuff for HTPC applications for $1000 that looks really nice, but I personally built mine in a nice Coolermaster case for under $700.

space: apple-tv is the size of a dvd-case.. a computer is huge in comparison.
Once again, not all of them.

I do like the Apple TV device and think it looks pretty cool, but you're extremely limited compared to a PC or Mac Mini. The thing that the Mac Mini/Apple TV fans keep forgetting is that there are plenty of sufficient PC options as well that run considerably cheaper. They look as nice and are more flexible as far as which hardware you can use with them. I'm not saying that a PC is definitely the way to go... I'm just saying that you folks need to be more accurate with your comparisons and "facts".

I still think the way to go would be to have one of the XBMC devs talk to Shuttle (or another reputable company) and ask if they can develop a device with the exact specifications they want. Any company would be likely to jump on the opportunity since they'd be guaranteed to sell at least a few hundred of the computers just to the XBMC crowd. If the number of buyers was predetermined, perhaps we'd also be able to get additional discounts.

szsori

2007-05-13, 08:49

Oh... another option. Just make a "Live CD" that supports all of the more standard hardware (popular video cards, sound cards, lan cards, etc) and then support a single type of video capture card and game controller/remote. This would allow users to make/buy the system they really want to use without significantly increasing the number of linux-specific support requests. I love the idea of having a XBMC Live USB key as well. :)

ultrabrutal

2007-05-13, 12:52

how about drivers for the wireless xbox360 controller with the keyboard attached. would feel more like xbmc and then there would be some xbox left in it ;)

btw aopen did a mac mini clone awhile back. a quick googles shows this:

http://www.engadget.com/2005/05/31/aopens-pandora-mac-mini-clone-opens-box-of-legal-trouble/

pike

2007-05-13, 15:06

Are we excited ?

Gamester17

2007-05-13, 16:28

I have been thinking about this during the last couple of days. I now like to argue that besides the 'good old' Xbox (and possible future ports to PS3 (http://xbmc.org/forum/showthread.php?t=21849) and Xbox 360 (http://xbmc.org/forum/showthread.php?t=9299) which I do not think we should discuss in this specific topic-thread), when the Linux port of XBMC becomes mature enough for end-users to fully use it will probebely be a very good idea to keep two (and only two) specific 'locked-down' x86-based (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X86) computer platforms (or motherboard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motherboard)) with different specifications and differently priced as the 'locked-down' concrete reference hardware and the sole computer platform that Team-XBMC will officialy support. Smart would probebely be to have one relativly inexpensive ($500 USD or less) low-end computer hardware model and one expensive ($1500 USD or less) high-end computer hardware model, both with clearly specified minimum requirements and exactly detailed hardware parts, (that way the users can let their needs and size of their pockets decide which model to go for).

I think that low-end model should be fanless and at least capable to playback H.264 encoded video (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H.264) at 720p native resolution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/720p) but also capable to upscale (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_scaler) all video to 1080i (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1080i), and have at least have optical-audio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SPDIF), component (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Component_Video) and DVI (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Visual_Interface) or HDMI (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDMI) ports. The high-end model should be capable to playback H.264 encoded video (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H.264) at 1080p native resolution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1080p) and also capable to upscale (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_scaler) all video to 1080p (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1080p), and have at least have optical-audio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SPDIF), component (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Component_Video) and HDMI/HDCP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDMI) ports. The low-end computer hardware model should not be required to have a DVD-ROM drive, while the high-end model on the other hand should be required required to have a DVD-ROM drive. Niether the low-end or the high-end computer hardware should nieter be required to required to have a harddisk-drive, but both should be required to be able to boot from a USB-key and completly run the operating-system and XBMC (plus any other applications) from there. The hardware's lifle-cycle should also be as long as possible, meaning new ones should be should in retail stores for years to come, (that is why a game-console hardware makes a perfect sense to use as a reference model).

Today Apple TV (from Apple) (http://www.apple.com/appletv/) already fills all of those given requirements for the low-end computer hardware model, and on top of that it only costs $300 USD. I do think that would make the perfect reference platform, (the only 'issue' I see is that it does not have a LCD-display on the box itself but that could always be case modded if one wants it). The minimum requirements I given above for the high-end computer hardware model is however harder to meet today (especially the long life-cycle part), so I do not think that model should be set in stone just yet. I do however think that the upcoming update model of the Mac Mini from Apple (http://www.apple.com/se/macmini/) will possibly make a great high-end model candidate, I think it will probebly come down to the retail price that will be set for it when it is released this fall, (and if it so happens to come with a HD DVD (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HD_DVD) and/or Blu-ray (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blu-ray) disc-reader as an option that would not hurt either), ...yes I know that the PlayStation 3 (PS3) premium-edition game-console (http://xbmc.org/forum/showthread.php?t=21849) hardware also fills those requirements, but it might automaticly have to be ruled out because of the combining issues like it is not an full open platform; with non open source device-drivers and the PS3 hypervisor is limiting Linux on it to 2D graphics and low-level access to the hardware (http://moss.csc.ncsu.edu/~mueller/cluster/ps3/doc/LinuxKernelOverview.html), plus the fact that processor (CPU) is not x86-based (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X86) but instead PowerPC-based Cell processor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cell_microprocessor) which could make development applications for it harder and more time-consuming.

Apple TV hardware details of Revision A (manufacured from the 9th of January 2007):
* Power usage: 48 watt
* Intel-processor (Pentium M (model 723) at 1.0GHz with 2MB Level-2 cache)
* Nvidia GeForce Go 7300 (64MB VRAM, made up of two GDDR3 memory chips running at 700MHz) (source)
* 256MB RAM (made up of four 64MB DDR2 SDRAM running at 400MHz)
* Harddrive: 40GB (with 2MB buffer memory) 2.5" in size and running at 4200rpm
* Network:
** Ethernet (10/100Mbps)
**802.11 b, g, n wireless network (Apple AirPort) (using a Broadcom chip)
*Ports back:
*USB 2.0
**HDMI-outport (using a Silicon Image TMDS-transmitter chip) can be converted to DVI via adapter
**Component video
**S/PDIF digitalt optical-audio
**RCA analog-aduio (left and right for stereo)
*Ports front:
**IR-port for the Apple Remote Control that comes with

Know though that no matter what platform we choose as the locked-down computer hardware, since this XBMC Linux port will run as an application end-users and developers a like will of course be able to run it on any computer hardware they like, they will just not get any support with problems from Team-XBMC, nor will we fix bugs on other that only occur on the computer hardware other than the two specified locked-down reference models. If this XBMC Linux port will be distributed as an official Live CD (LiveDistro) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LiveDistro) bundled with the Linux operating-system to futher lock-down of the static constant system enviroment then only that Live CD distro will be officialy supported by Team-XBMC, and it will thus stripped down as much as possible to keep the size and potential compatibily issues down (by ripping out device drivers, etc. that will not be needed unless we would intend to support multiple hardware platforms).

PS! I'm have now moved this topic-thread from the XBMC Development Forum to the XBMC to the XBMC General Discussion Forum since the discussion har clearly spun away from code and programming, also only developers should really start new topic-threads in the developement. So feel free to continue this broad general questions/answers and discussion about the different aspects of what porting XBMC to Linux could/will bring.

pike

2007-05-13, 17:29

does linux for AppleTV have 3d accelerated drivers ?
Reason I ask is because we're leaning towards making this a requirement.

LiquidIce629

2007-05-13, 18:07

All of the available information about the Apple TV's hardware and linux can be found here:
http://wiki.awkwardtv.org/wiki/Main_Page
http://wiki.awkwardtv.org/wiki/Linux_on_Apple_TV

yes, it does support hardware acceleration in linux with the stock NVIDIA drivers. I've already got my ATV, hacked and ready for linux. Let me know when you need testers :laugh:

This thread has gotten me extremely excited about XBMC again. Keep up the great work guys!

nate12o6

2007-05-13, 18:11

I hate the fact that we are debating hardware specs this early so this is not a request for a port to the ps3 but only a question about the cell processor. Does anybody know how good the cell processor could decode or even encode video? It seams like it would be built for that. But i also here horrer stories about how hard it is to develope for.

LiquidIce629

2007-05-13, 18:20

Where is the edit button on this message board? I stand corrected, it looks like the NVIDIA library for linux only supports MPEG2 hardware acceleration... so it looks like there will be some work to do to get it playing any kind of high res video in linux.

The Linux NVidia binary drivers are not documented to support anything but MPEG2 offloading, so PureVideo is currently unsupported for Linux.

There is also Apple TV bootloader information here for anyone interested: http://www.mythic-beasts.com/resources/appletv/mb_boot_tv/

pike

2007-05-13, 18:37

PS3 would be so mint
REAL SHAME they have disabled GPU access. This is a much bigger issue than people seem to realize. Accelerated gpu drivers aren't only needed for a powerful skinning engine, it's definetely REQUIRED to get proper (accelerated) video playback. Please note, this has not so much to do with which videocodec is used.

I hate the fact that we are debating hardware specs this early so this is not a request for a port to the ps3 but only a question about the cell processor. Does anybody know how good the cell processor could decode or even encode video? It seams like it would be built for that. But i also here horrer stories about how hard it is to develope for.

nate12o6

2007-05-13, 18:45

question #2

I know the xbmc team has talked with microsoft about getting a dev liscence and where denied. Would you say the chances with sony would also be 0?

pike

2007-05-13, 19:00

If YellowDog Linux doesn't get access, I think chances are pretty slim we will get it. We're both opensource afaik.

question #2

I know the xbmc team has talked with microsoft about getting a dev liscence and where denied. Would you say the chances with sony would also be 0?

_max_

2007-05-13, 19:18

I have a HTPC that I use in a different room instead of my Xbox. It actually runs quieter than the Xbox. Not saying it's silent, but it's far more easy to customize a PC to make it silent than customizing a console or STB.

A computer that's just sufficient to decode h264 content can be found for far less than $1000. Shuttle has really high end stuff for HTPC applications for $1000 that looks really nice, but I personally built mine in a nice Coolermaster case for under $700.

Once again, not all of them.

I do like the Apple TV device and think it looks pretty cool, but you're extremely limited compared to a PC or Mac Mini. The thing that the Mac Mini/Apple TV fans keep forgetting is that there are plenty of sufficient PC options as well that run considerably cheaper. They look as nice and are more flexible as far as which hardware you can use with them. I'm not saying that a PC is definitely the way to go... I'm just saying that you folks need to be more accurate with your comparisons and "facts".

I still think the way to go would be to have one of the XBMC devs talk to Shuttle (or another reputable company) and ask if they can develop a device with the exact specifications they want. Any company would be likely to jump on the opportunity since they'd be guaranteed to sell at least a few hundred of the computers just to the XBMC crowd. If the number of buyers was predetermined, perhaps we'd also be able to get additional discounts.

Im sorry but asking shuttle to do a custom setup for XBMC? do you know how much money goes into designin a motherboard? i asked for a dev board from a company and they asked me to send back a detailed plan of what application i would build ontop of it that would sell atleast 200.000 units. it costs ALOT of money, people have asked asus and abit to create linux friendly motherboards for years, theres just not enough money in it.

And i recommended the apple products cause they stay the same for ages.

Do you know how many pc combinations there is ? for each damn setup there are wierd bugs, and hardware missfits that will cause headaches. If you use a console thats going to be the same for 10 years you can focus on the application. Just look at Windows, how stable would it not have been if it ran on a platform that used the same hardware for 10 years? Look at Porsche.. wanna know why they have cars that barely break down? cause its been the same shit for 10-15 years with minor modifications, thus its ultra-ultra tested.

_max_

2007-05-13, 19:22

I have been thinking about this during the last couple of days. I now like to argue that besides the 'good old' Xbox (and possible future ports to PS3 (http://xbmc.org/forum/showthread.php?t=21849) and Xbox 360 (http://xbmc.org/forum/showthread.php?t=9299) which I do not think we should discuss in this specific topic-thread), when the Linux port of XBMC becomes mature enough for end-users to fully use it will probebely be a very good idea to keep two (and only two) specific 'locked-down' x86-based (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X86) computer platforms (or motherboard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motherboard)) with different specifications and differently priced as the 'locked-down' concrete reference hardware and the sole computer platform that Team-XBMC will officialy support. Smart would probebely be to have one relativly inexpensive ($500 USD or less) low-end computer hardware model and one expensive ($1500 USD or less) high-end computer hardware model, both with clearly specified minimum requirements and exactly detailed hardware parts, (that way the users can let their needs and size of their pockets decide which model to go for).

I think that low-end model should be fanless and at least capable to playback H.264 encoded video (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H.264) at 720p native resolution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/720p) but also capable to upscale (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_scaler) all video to 1080i (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1080i), and have at least have optical-audio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SPDIF), component (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Component_Video) and DVI (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Visual_Interface) or HDMI (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDMI) ports. The high-end model should be capable to playback H.264 encoded video (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H.264) at 1080p native resolution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1080p) and also capable to upscale (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_scaler) all video to 1080p (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1080p), and have at least have optical-audio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SPDIF), component (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Component_Video) and HDMI/HDCP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDMI) ports. The low-end computer hardware model should not be required to have a DVD-ROM drive, while the high-end model on the other hand should be required required to have a DVD-ROM drive. Niether the low-end or the high-end computer hardware should nieter be required to required to have a harddisk-drive, but both should be required to be able to boot from a USB-key and completly run the operating-system and XBMC (plus any other applications) from there. The hardware's lifle-cycle should also be as long as possible, meaning new ones should be should in retail stores for years to come, (that is why a game-console hardware makes a perfect sense to use as a reference model).

Today Apple TV (from Apple) (http://www.apple.com/appletv/) already fills all of those given requirements for the low-end computer hardware model, and on top of that it only costs $300 USD. I do think that would make the perfect reference platform, (the only 'issue' I see is that it does not have a LCD-display on the box itself but that could always be case modded if one wants it). The minimum requirements I given above for the high-end computer hardware model is however harder to meet today (especially the long life-cycle part), so I do not think that model should be set in stone just yet. I do however think that the upcoming update model of the Mac Mini from Apple (http://www.apple.com/se/macmini/) will possibly make a great high-end model candidate, I think it will probebly come down to the retail price that will be set for it when it is released this fall, (and if it so happens to come with a HD DVD (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HD_DVD) and/or Blu-ray (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blu-ray) disc-reader as an option that would not hurt either), ...yes I know that the PlayStation 3 (PS3) premium-edition game-console (http://xbmc.org/forum/showthread.php?t=21849) hardware also fills those requirements, but it might automaticly have to be ruled out because of the combining issues like it is not an full open platform; with non open source device-drivers and the PS3 hypervisor is limiting Linux on it to 2D graphics and low-level access to the hardware (http://moss.csc.ncsu.edu/~mueller/cluster/ps3/doc/LinuxKernelOverview.html), plus the fact that processor (CPU) is not x86-based (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X86) but instead PowerPC-based Cell processor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cell_microprocessor) which could make development applications for it harder and more time-consuming.

Know though that no matter what platform we choose as the locked-down computer hardware, since this XBMC Linux port will run as an application end-users and developers a like will of course be able to run it on any computer hardware they like, they will just not get any support with problems from Team-XBMC, nor will we fix bugs on other that only occur on the computer hardware other than the two specified locked-down reference models. If this XBMC Linux port will be distributed as an official Live CD (LiveDistro) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LiveDistro) bundled with the Linux operating-system to futher lock-down of the static constant system enviroment then only that Live CD distro will be officialy supported by Team-XBMC, and it will thus stripped down as much as possible to keep the size and potential compatibily issues down (by ripping out device drivers, etc. that will not be needed unless we would intend to support multiple hardware platforms).

PS! I'm have now moved this topic-thread from the XBMC Development Forum to the XBMC to the XBMC General Discussion Forum since the discussion har clearly spun away from code and programming, also only developers should really start new topic-threads in the developement. So feel free to continue this broad general questions/answers and discussion about the different aspects of what porting XBMC to Linux could/will bring.

sorry for a large quote, You CANT lock down xbmc to a specific motherboard, motherboards arn't sold for more than 6-12 months (6 if noone buys them, even less, 12 if they are _really_ popular..) What happens after 12 months? support the next montherboard with an entire different sb/nb chipset? its stupid trying to get xbmc on a computer, the only thnig it would work on for longer than 12 months is a console.

pike

2007-05-13, 21:16

@ _max_: your quoting skillz leave alot to be desired. don't repeat this mistake or I will have to take measures. thanks for the apology though

Here's todays Linux progress Screenshot (13th of May 2007): http://i6.tinypic.com/6gl79rn.jpg
We had another breakthrough and now OpenGL works quite well (for GUI rendering) atleast on Nvidia and Intel gfx on Ubuntu.

mace

2007-05-13, 22:53

First I must say that I Like Gamester17:s idea about keeping the list of supported hardware very short.

According to me that's one of the major issues with Media Portal. Since they got so much supported hardware and fetures, the quality isn't keeping up despite a lot of hard work.

The A TV is a nice box and i would love to see it as a XBMC box but as I reed the specs, it does require a TV with DVI/HDMI input. Isn't that a little tough demand on the low-end alternative?

I would like to add a SCART or S-video output as a requirement on the low-end variant. These outputs will lower quality but they will provide a possibility to hook up to older TV:s.

Gamester17

2007-05-13, 23:28

does linux for AppleTV have 3d accelerated drivers ?The nice thing about Apple TV is that unlike the old Xbox (which uses customized chipset and GPU) Apple simply took a standard Mobile Intel Centrino 915PM Express chipset (http://www.intel.com/products/chipsets/915pm/index.htm) (featuring Intel ICH7 7.1 High Definition Audio (http://www.intel.com/design/chipsets/hdaudio.htm)) and a standard NVIDIA GeForce Go 7300 GPU (graphic processor chip) (http://www.nvidia.com/page/go_7300.html), making the Apple TV basically just a laptop computer with a proprietary operating-system and without a built-in keyboard/trackpad and display that normally is attached to laptop computer. So we can just use the normal proprietary binary device drivers that NVIDIA provides for Linux, (or we can choose to use the open source drivers if we clike, but I doubt those are as good as the closed source one NVIDIA provides, at least not yet, though I'm not sure what the license sais about distributing the proprietary binary device drivers from NVIDIA on Live CD).
http://www.mactel-linux.org/wiki/AppleTV

The NVIDIA GeForce Go 7300 GPU also supports NVIDIA's PureVideo™ technology for H.264, WMV, and MPEG-2 Hardware Acceleration (http://www.nvidia.com/page/purevideo.html), NIVIDIA does unfortunatly not yet provide a Linux library or SDK for accessing that PureVideo API, (nor have I heard of NIVIDIA releasing any specifications or technical documentation for it, so as far as I know no one in the open source community have tried reverse engineering to gain access to it for adding support to it via XvMC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XvMC)), however motion compensation (mo comp) and iDCT (Inverse Discrete Cosine Transform) is probably still supported via XvMC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XvMC), at least for MPEG-2 (I don't know the current development state of XvMC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XvMC) and MPEG-4. XvMC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XvMC) is open source after all, maybe can look at The Unichrome Project (http://sourceforge.net/projects/unichrome/) and The openChrome Project (http://wiki.openchrome.org/tikiwiki/tiki-index.php?page=XvMC#Mplayer) provide code patched which adds MPEG-4 hardware acceleration to FFmepg and MPlayer via XvMC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XvMC)). Alternativly maybe our developers or FFmpeg (http://ffmpeg.mplayerhq.hu)/MPlayer (http://www.mplayerhq.hu) developers can write pixel-shaders for Shader Model 3.0 using the Cg (C for graphics) programming language (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cg_programming_language) which NVIDIA do provide a lot of developer tools and documentation for (http://developer.nvidia.com/page/home.html), (maybe by using the Lib Sh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lib_Sh) or other existing open source GPGPU (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GPGPU) library/code as a base). The GPGPU (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GPGPU) and the GPU programming community is pretty big, I'm sure a solution can be found somewhere. I think the different codec decoding processes that could possible be accelerated that way in are; Motion Compensation (mo comp), Inverse Transform (iDCT), inverse quantization (IQ), in-loop deblocking, bitstream processing (CAVLC/CABAC), Variable-Length Decoding (VLD), and de-interlacing. Who knows now, offload all those together on the GPU (plus all CPU optimizations available) then we might even someday be able to pull off native 1080p H.264 video, which is probably the most demanding video codec we got today. By then maybe NVIDIA will decide to open up the PureVideo API, that would be irony for you, hehe
http://developer.nvidia.com/page/home.html
http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/index.php/XvMC

Even though Apple as currently limited Apple TV to 1080i as the maximum output resolution, the hardware does support 1080p as the maximum output resolution. It is possible to speculate that Apple will do like Microsoft did with the Xbox 360 and release a firmware update that will enable 1080p output on all Apple TV boxes. I don't even know if Linux on Apple TV is limited, it depends if the restriction is hardcoded in the firmware/BIOS or if it is just a limitation set in the Apple TV operating-system.

You CANT lock down xbmc to a specific motherboard, motherboards arn't sold for more than 6-12 months (6 if noone buys them, even less, 12 if they are _really_ popular..) What happens after 12 months? support the next montherboard with an entire different sb/nb chipset? its stupid trying to get xbmc on a computer, the only thnig it would work on for longer than 12 months is a console.@_max_, you quoted my whole post but it does not sound like you actually read more than the first section, if you would have read the whole thing then you would know that that also suggest Apple TV has that primary locked-down computer hardware platform, and yes Apple TV is a computer and yes it has a motherboard inside of it and yes Apple will sell it for years to come, (they might come with an updated model in a couple of year but then we just have to support that new model of Apple TV as well and the old one). I also suggested VIA EPIA embedded motherboard which also have a very long life-cycle because they are designed to be used in applienses, so VIA manufactures each model for 5-years+ (and by then it is probably time for XBMC to support a new hardware platform anyhow). Besides, you will be able to run XBMC on any Linux dist on any hardware you like and add any drivers you like yourself, as long as you do not ask for support in these forums or our official IRC-channel if and when you run into problems with it on.

The A TV is a nice box and i would love to see it as a XBMC box but as I reed the specs, it does require a TV with DVI/HDMI input. Isn't that a little tough demand on the low-end alternative?

I would like to add a SCART or S-video output as a requirement on the low-end variant. These outputs will lower quality but they will provide a possibility to hook up to older TV:s.If you TV that only supports SCART or S-Video then why not just stick with the old Xbox for XBMC?, your not going to get high-definition via SCART or S-Video anyway. Anyhow, the Apple TV box does features component video (RGB) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Component_video) ports as well, and many television sets, especially in Europe and Japan, utilize RGB via the SCART connector. If your TV supports RGB via SCART then all you need is a RGB to SCART adapter, one of those doesn't cost much and are not hard to find. There are also RGB to S-Video, and RGB to Composit, and RGB to VGA media converter available to buy.

_max_

2007-05-14, 00:34

Gamester17

2007-05-14, 00:54

HLSL2GLSL (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HLSL2GLSL) (http://sourceforge.net/projects/hlsl2glsl) HLSL2GLSL is a command line tool that translates DirectX 9 High Level Shader Language (HLSL) shaders into the OpenGL Shading Language (GLSL)If it does the same for DirectX 8 shaders then could this tool be used to help you port the pixel shader renderers for XBMC video players (MPlayer and DVDPlayer) (http://www.xboxmediacenter.com/wiki/index.php?title=Rendering) to OpenGL?HLSL2GLSL can be used as a stand-alone command-line tool to directly translate shader source from HLSL to GLSL. In addition, a library version of the tool is provided (along with full source-code) that can be used by a developer in their application. The library is designed to work with input HLSL shaders up to Shader Model 3.0. The tool generates either GLSL v1.10.59 desktop OpenGL shaders or shaders that can be used with the OpenGL ES Shading Language v1.00. Also available as binaries for Mac OS X and Win32. By the way, does SDL support OpenGL ES (2D OpenGL)?

Ph03n1x

2007-05-14, 01:07

Amazing progress so far, however I have to agree with nate12o6 - I think it's a little too early to be discussing h/w specs right now. We should wait until the devs have a fairly quick and stable build and base a spec around that.

Hopefully the h/w backend will be left open so people can add support for their own setup. The XBMC team could then define a recommended/minimum spec and create/support builds based on that architecture.

mace

2007-05-14, 19:51

As I see it there are three major reasons for going the A-TV way instead of going Xbox even with an old telly.

1. Xboxes are staring to become rare. A used one is about $250-300 here. A new modded Xbox costs as much as a A-TV does and then you will have to get a remote to the Xbox.

2. The A-TV will allow for fanless operations

3. the A-TV could possibly allow for HDTV in the future

So i started to look into the output issue, Component vill send Y Pb Pr and a RGB scart tv can't handle that since it expects RGB. There seems to be some Tellys wich have compoent over scart inputs but the seems to be rare.
However I found this thread on the Apple forum http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?threadID=906299

it points to this converter as a solution http://www.keene.co.uk/electronics/multi.php?mycode=RGB2C
I also found http://www.svideo.com/appletv2tv.html
for them who doesn't have a RGB scart so

another god page that lists some converters are http://www.woggledog.com/mac/index.asp?subject=yuv

Therefore I now think this is a no issue. It can be handled by a converter and since the A-tv is around $300-$400 (Depending on country) it will even fit the $500 budget with a converter :grin:

Enough of-topic from me:
And now to a more important question: -What can i do to help?
I'm not a C programmer, I can make a hello world but thats about it. However I can test and i can help with docs if there is need. I do got hardware for Linux boxes

ultrabrutal

2007-05-14, 20:41

Mace,
1. Where do you live? There are sold so many Xboxes you will be able to buy them for the next 20 years kind of like you still can buy Commodore 64's. A used Xbox here (Denmark) is like $60-$70
2. Xbox needs a fan but you can swap stock with low noise or have it auto ajust so it's pretty much always at 2% speed
3. Xbox does HD pretty good at 720p via component
if you are gone use scart then stay on Xbox. A new playform will bring you nothing interresting really ;)

Why a new platform will be needed:

a. 1080i/p playback. x264 content
b. possible playback of hd-dvd and blu-ray down the line, just like we have DVD playback now
c. HDMI/DVI output (lets go for 1.3/1.3a)
d. smaller and fanless
e. less power drained
f. possible to turnon without walking (yes can be done with modded xbox)
g. possible to buy a decent wireless controller again (the logitech xbox controllers are gone)
h. and so on

A downside will be the price as the Xbox will never be beaten in that department plus it's pretty easy to code for being an almost static platform (few hw revs)

finas

2007-05-14, 22:43

Even though Apple as currently limited Apple TV to 1080i as the maximum output resolution, the hardware does support 1080p as the maximum output resolution.

1080i actually has 20% more information than 1080p

http://www.hometheatermag.com/gearworks/1106gear/

pike

2007-05-15, 00:06

and let's not forget, we need something to run this linux version on!

But I am abit sceptical about those apple-tv converters. I will probably remain sceptical until I get an idea of the output quality

deeceefar2

2007-05-15, 01:56

I'm going to agree with the Apple TV idea. Another reason to go with the apple tv that may not have been discussed yet, developer budget friendly. It is cheap @ only $300 so it is conceivable that with a small donation drive you could outfit current XBMC developers with apple TVs and jump start the development effort a bit. The platform is static just like the Xbox, though I could see Apple trying to pull some of the hardware revision crap Microsoft did to stop the modding community, but that never really worked for them anyway did it. With a future mac mini in the pipeline, it is highly likely that it will use a similar nVidia graphics chip as the apple TV making a perfect platform to expand on to in the future. Apple TV has a high retail availability meaning it could be snapped up by testers all over the world quickly, and the modding community for this device is already booming. Although the apple TV lacks a built in cd/dvd/hd-dvd/blu-ray drive it seems relatively easy to add that or any number of other peripherals via the USB port, including my dream, a DVB-S2 USB adapter. I really can't think of a much better device to port it to. The apple TV is sold a complete unit meaning it wouldn't take more then about 30 minutes to get up and running with the apple TV and XBMC. This is the perfect platform to seize some more of the media center market share; it would provide a great way to pull XBMC into the main stream.

The downside I see for the Apple TV is that processor is not fast enough to do full software decoding of high resolution video codecs. Without an nVidia linux driver that supports purevideo and the lack of a fast processor, you could end up with a device that is only marginally faster for high def video then the original xbox. Perhaps with an OS X driver already out for pure video perhaps it would be better to start with a port to OS X until their is linux purevideo support. I'm just not sure if there is enough documentation to port it to the apple TV under OS X The upshot to linux development however is that should you end up hitting a brick wall iwith the driver you could always just shift platforms and up the CPU requirements without having to change much if any code at all.

I think if anything the apple TV at least makes an attractive development platform. Besides if the processor from the apple tv turned out to be too slow you could easily push the project onto the mac mini without missing a step. A couple months down the line when the XBMC port starts becoming usable make a release, you could open up donations and get people to help provide developers with a solid test bed for getting everything running smoothly. Keep up the great work.

seaweed

2007-05-15, 02:12

This seems like a great project, i hope you will find a way for the xbmc port to add support for usb hd-dvd/blueray external players.

Nick8888

2007-05-15, 03:27

Ok, I know this is a fair bit off topic but i didn't think i should make an entire new thread for it. Tell me if i should have.

Suppose the new hardware had bluetooth, would it then be possible (if someone was willing to develop it..) to support multiple xbmc's around the house in the sense that if you were walking around from one tv to a tv in another room with a bluetooth device. the first xbmc turned off and the one in the other room continued what you were watching when it detected your bluetooth device(mobile)

I just dont know whether the bluetooth receivers can detect the strength of the signal. But in my opinion it would be a nice feature which could also be configured with profiles. so that if xbmc detected that "Sam's" fones bluetooth signal strength was above a certain defined level it would switch to "Sam's" xbmc profile.

@ultrabrutal
correct me if im wrong but you forgot support for tv tuners. i know there are other streaming methods at the moment but in my opinion this would be one of the biggest advantages if its developed.

ultrabrutal

2007-05-15, 11:05

nick, that idea (similar) has been up before and was labeled usable for pron (walking to bed room) ;)

oh yeah tv tuners instead of network enabled tuners that xbmc "support" now and ofcourse in box scheduling and recording.
wake on lan would be nice too

seaweed

2007-05-15, 14:00

Another nice thing would be if we were able to boot directly into xbmc. Like with GeeXboX. (not via x-server etc)

ultrabrutal

2007-05-15, 15:37

yeah it should be a full distro. no need for installing linux and then xbmc as that would not be good for non geeks ;)

a good thing then is that it can self update since it nolonger rely on "illegal" binaries

szsori

2007-05-15, 18:14

Im sorry but asking shuttle to do a custom setup for XBMC? do you know how much money goes into designin a motherboard? i asked for a dev board from a company and they asked me to send back a detailed plan of what application i would build ontop of it that would sell atleast 200.000 units. it costs ALOT of money, people have asked asus and abit to create linux friendly motherboards for years, theres just not enough money in it.
I know this is jumping a pretty long way back into the thread, but I had to respond. There's a big difference between asking someone to develop brand new hardware vs putting together a standardized system. I wasn't suggesting that Shuttle would be interested in coming up with a new circuitboard with an embedded OS or anything. I was suggesting that they'd probably be willing to put together a standardized system that uses parts that XBMC-Linux will be able to use.

You sure do like quoting a lot instead of reading properly.

_max_

2007-05-15, 19:06

The platform is static just like the Xbox, though I could see Apple trying to pull some of the hardware revision crap Microsoft did to stop the modding community, but that never really worked for them anyway did it..

Apple have officially stated that they will not change the hardware to prevent modding, they said if someone opens the case and screws up the hardware, thats there money lost, aslong as they dont open it, warrenty will not be voided.

So they seem to welcome this :)

_max_

2007-05-15, 19:09

I know this is jumping a pretty long way back into the thread, but I had to respond. There's a big difference between asking someone to develop brand new hardware vs putting together a standardized system. I wasn't suggesting that Shuttle would be interested in coming up with a new circuitboard with an embedded OS or anything. I was suggesting that they'd probably be willing to put together a standardized system that uses parts that XBMC-Linux will be able to use.

You sure do like quoting a lot instead of reading properly.

creating a motherboard isn't as simple as you may think, do you know how many layers of connections that connect all the components? that need to fit phsyically onto the motherboard? thats millions of dollars, xbmc people that would purchase this motherboard would in no-way make up for that cost. Just get a microscope and look at a standard motherboard, thats tons of hours on design, and even more hours testing it so its stable.

i wont go as low as to personally attack your knowlage (or lack there of) as you attack my reading.

_max_

2007-05-15, 19:14

creating a motherboard isn't as simple as you may think, do you know how many layers of connections that connect all the components? that need to fit phsyically onto the motherboard? thats millions of dollars, xbmc people that would purchase this motherboard would in no-way make up for that cost. Just get a microscope and look at a standard motherboard, thats tons of hours on design, and even more hours testing it so its stable.

i wont go as low as to personally attack your knowlage (or lack there of) as you attack my reading.

Since theres no edit feature in this forum and i forgott to add:

Shuttle only make chassis with everything onboard a single motherboard, thats why i brought up the motherboard again (some people dont seem to know this) when you buy a shuttle chassi you get the chassi, a psu, and a motherboard. You just add ram,cpu,hdd,dvd and a gpu if you want.

szsori

2007-05-15, 19:49

Sigh. Once again, you're talking about motherboard design when it's completely irrelevant. There are plenty of motherboard solutions out there that would be sufficient for Shuttle to incorporate, including some of the VIA-EPIA motherboards.

Besides, I was using Shuttle as an example, not a final solution. I'm sure there are plenty of other manufacturers out there that would love to come up with something that's guaranteed to sell a good deal of units. Shuttle actually already has 3 HTPC units that might work, but would be on the expensive end (around $1000 I believe). I still think AppleTV is a decent option, but it really doesn't have the power to do some of the things I personally would be interested in (higher end emulation and gaming).

And yes, I understand the complexities of circuit board design. My mother develops circuit boards for GE and a good friend is a senior processor engineer at Intel. It doesn't really matter though, since, like I said, it's completely irrelevant.

pike

2007-05-15, 20:25

As has been pointed out already, using standard pc components isn't a good idea since they aren't in rotation very long.

A Big Reason XBMC is what it is today is because it's made for 1 platform where all hardware basically is the same. Let's not forget this

aegzorz

2007-05-16, 02:06

I like the idea of having a separate linux dist just for xbmc, geexbox sounds like a good model to look at. Making a WIN32 version of xbmc might be nice for some, but windows isn't exactly fast to boot :)

The Apple TV doesn't really have much on the xbox, i'd rather see xbmc on a Mac Mini or alike with a C2D. I hope this port doesn't turn out to be another Media Portal, i really couldn't care less for dvb-c/t/s support. I just want a 720p/1080p x264 capable box :) Maybe you should have a poll for a hardware-platform, or two polls; one budget spec and one highend spec.

I'm really eager to see what this will bring, and would like to wish all involved good luck!

I've done alot of cross-platform programming lately (ported stuff from WIN32 to OS X), will look into contributing somehow to this project.

pike

2007-05-16, 04:45

Todays Linux Screenshot: http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/4520/070516xp0.png

It illustrates a couple of things.

We run window in 720p
We show the amazingly beautiful Jessica Alba using our freshly ported and very alpha Imagelib_raw.dll
And all running in OpenGL on my modest Intel GMA945 gpu.

Thanks to the great work so far by all involved: yuvalt, vulkanr, elupus and last but not least jmarshall

seaweed

2007-05-16, 11:13

looking great pike :)

riker77

2007-05-16, 19:29

Hi,

when I try to compile xbmc on my gentoo rig, I get the following error with guiImage.cpp

g++-4.1 -c -g -D_LINUX -D_XBMC_DEBUG -D_FILE_DEFINED -D_REENTRANT -D_LARGEFILE64_SOURCE -D_FILE_OFFSET_BITS=64 -I. -Icommon -I../xbmc -I../xbmc/linux -I/usr/include/freetype2 -I/usr/include/SDL guiImage.cpp -o guiImage.o
guiImage.cpp: In member function 'virtual void CGUIImage::Render()':
guiImage.cpp:174: error: 'glActiveTextureARB' was not declared in this scope
guiImage.cpp: In member function 'void CGUIImage::Render(float, float, float, float, float, float, float, float)':
guiImage.cpp:435: error: 'glMultiTexCoord2f' was not declared in this scope
make[1]: *** [guiImage.o] Error 1
make[1]: Leaving directory `/home/riker/testbed/XBMC/guilib'
make: *** [guilib] Error 2

2D SDL code compiles just fine. I checked /usr/include/SDL and sdl_opengl.h is there. Any suggestions?

My versions of SDL are:
libsdl-1.2.11-r2
sdl-ttf-2.0.8
sdl-sound-1.0.1-r1
sdl-mixer-1.2.7
sdl-image-1.2.5-r1
sdl-gfx-2.0.13-r1

gcc-4.1.1
libcdio-0.77
fribidi-0.10.7
lzo-2.02-r1
freetype-2.3.3
sqlite-3.3.12
libogg-1.1.3

yuvalt

2007-05-16, 22:37

when I try to compile xbmc on my gentoo rig, I get the following error with guiImage.cpp

guiImage.cpp: In member function 'virtual void CGUIImage::Render()':
guiImage.cpp:174: error: 'glActiveTextureARB' was not declared in this scope
guiImage.cpp: In member function 'void CGUIImage::Render(float, float, float,

This function should be in /usr/include/GL/gl.h. Could be that you don't have a recent version of OpenGL? In my GL.h it says Mesa 6.5.1. The file is part of the mesa-common-dev package in Ubuntu.

-Yuval

riker77

2007-05-17, 15:16

Hi yuvalt,

I checked my mesa version. It is 6.5.2. Although it is new enough I reinstalled it. Guess what. Compilation now works. Thank you for pointing me into the right direction.

Regards,
riker

Geeba

2007-05-17, 16:01

Not sure if this is relivent but if anyone watches DL.TV (great script on XBMC of course) then you would of seen them open up a ATV and fit a bigger HDD in... its well on the way to being the modders platform of choice I think :nod: thinking of getting one and trying a few bits on it....

mace

2007-05-17, 21:10

I decided to see if i could get XBMC/Linux to run of ATI hardware, and yes it does.
Ubuntu 7.04, ATI:s own driver and XBMC code from svn plus T3CH:s compile works.

ashlar

2007-05-18, 13:08

@ashlar, FYI; not all DVI ports (chips) support HDCP (in fact most do not), but you can connect a HDMI=>DVI adapter on any HDMI ports converting it into a DVI port, so in that respect HDMI is prefered over DVI if you can not have both, (plus the fact that HDMI features digital video and audio in the same cable).

Wikipedia is you friend:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DVI
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Definition_Multimedia_InterfaceHi! I know about DVI and HDCP, for that matter not all HDMI port that were put on the market in the earlier days supported HDCP properly. I'm just saying there's many DVI solution with HDCP support *and* they offer a better connector.

Plus, so far no computing solution has come out with support for the high res audio formats so... one might as well go through the classic SPDIF interface (furthermore, I really think the new audio formats are more marketing food than anything else, you need very, very expensive systems to tell the difference between full bitrate DTS and this new stuff).

seaweed

2007-05-18, 13:34

If xbmc gets released for a certain hardware-box it should at least be one with hdcp support, no matter what the connector interface is. (DVI or HDMI)

ashlar

2007-05-18, 14:14

If xbmc gets released for a certain hardware-box it should at least be one with hdcp support, no matter what the connector interface is. (DVI or HDMI)The only reason for hdcp support is if you'd want that box to be able to play unhacked HD-DVD or BD content.

In what is just my humble opinion, I feel that Apple TV would not be the right platform for this. To switch hardware platform by going to something that's underpowered *from day one* I feel would be a huge mistake.

Sure, Apple TV could be one of the unsupported hardware units that are capable of running XBMC Linux, and it could be good at that up to certain tasks. But as far as I understand it, it's severely limited even at 720p when decoding h.264 (notwithstanding the fact that when I read about reverse engineering to get h.264 acceleration working under Linux... well, is this worth the effort? Or does this apply to all nVidia solutions under Linux).

Major kudos to whoever suggested supporting the 360 wireless pad as a possible interface.

And pike... you asked "are we excited?". Hell, YEEEEEAAAAAAAH!!!!!! :grin::shocked::nod:

seaweed

2007-05-18, 15:04

The only reason for hdcp support is if you'd want that box to be able to play unhacked HD-DVD or BD content.

Indeed, from external usb hd-dvd/blueray players :)

But of course playing *264 stuff is just as important, so we need to have a high performance hardware platform to use xbmc on.

ultrabrutal

2007-05-18, 23:57

Plus, so far no computing solution has come out with support for the high res audio formats so... one might as well go through the classic SPDIF interface (furthermore, I really think the new audio formats are more marketing food than anything else, you need very, very expensive systems to tell the difference between full bitrate DTS and this new stuff).

Let's not rule those of us one day willing to spend the cash on a HD audio capable hdmi 1.3 receiver. lets go for hardware that covers even the stuff we know is coming! hdcp hdmi 1.3/1.3a is a must

and thanks for the kudos btw ;)

gav1577

2007-05-19, 02:03

hey guys i just think it should be ported to something a majority of us can afford
and still be able to use a normal tv as well as hd not everyone can afford all the expensive hardware and most people i know still dont have an hd tv although in a year or two i suppose they will. and just to boot i dont think many pepole will want a big bulky system sitting under their tv buzzing away in the background. hey but thats just my view guess we will just have to wait and see :)

aegzorz

2007-05-19, 03:57

I know a perfect system you can afford if you don't have a HDTV, it's called xbox ;)

ultrabrutal

2007-05-19, 11:12

gav1577, dude... a port does not mean that the old xbox is abandoned. it still has it purpose like you describe. the port is for content which you have no use for anyways on your tv, so stay with the xbox.
the only problem when writing new source is that developer in some cases has to do special things for either xbox, linux or pc for it work on all supported platforms

stickman

2007-05-20, 03:56

I just built the latest SVN with no problems and deployed the executable in the latest T3CH build directory, but there is no xbmc windows created at all.

I can't find any relevant info on the logfile on what the problem could be.
Maybe someone could help with that.

By the way. I'm on Feisty, gfx is GMA950 and direct rendering is working.

02:39:02 M: 58179584 NOTICE: -----------------------------------------------------------------------
02:39:02 M: 58179584 NOTICE: Starting XBoxMediaCenter. Built on May 19 2007
02:39:02 M: 58179584 NOTICE: Q is mapped to: /home/stickman/dev/XBMC
02:39:02 M: 58179584 NOTICE: The executeable running is: /home/stickman/dev/XBMC/XboxMediaCenter
02:39:02 M: 58179584 NOTICE: Log File is located: /home/stickman/dev/XBMC/xbmc.log
02:39:02 M: 58179584 NOTICE: -----------------------------------------------------------------------
02:39:02 M: 58179584 NOTICE: Setup SDL
02:39:02 M: 56655872 NOTICE: load settings...
02:39:02 M: 56655872 NOTICE: loading /home/stickman/dev/XBMC/UserData/guisettings.xml
02:39:02 M: 56528896 NOTICE: Getting hardware information now...
02:39:02 M: 56528896 NOTICE: Checking resolution 10
02:39:02 M: 56528896 NOTICE: Setting autoresolution mode 6
02:39:02 M: 56528896 NOTICE: Per AV pack settings are on
02:39:02 M: 56528896 NOTICE: Unknown found : loading /home/stickman/dev/XBMC/UserData/avpacksettings.xml
02:39:02 M: 56528896 NOTICE: Getting hardware information now...
02:39:02 M: 56528896 NOTICE: Checking resolution 10
02:39:02 M: 56528896 NOTICE: Setting autoresolution mode 6
02:39:02 M: 56528896 NOTICE: /home/stickman/dev/XBMC/UserData/sources.xml
02:39:02 M: 56528896 ERROR: Load Error loading /home/stickman/dev/XBMC/UserData/sources.xml: Line 0, Failed to open file
02:39:02 M: 56528896 INFO: Checking skinpath existance, and existence of keymap.xml:Q:\skin...
02:39:02 M: 56528896 INFO: load language info file:/home/stickman/dev/XBMC/language/English/langinfo.xml
02:39:02 M: 55894016 INFO: load language file:/home/stickman/dev/XBMC/language/English/strings.xml
02:39:02 M: 55513088 INFO: load keymapping
02:39:02 M: 55513088 INFO: Loading /home/stickman/dev/XBMC/UserData/Keymap.xml
02:39:02 M: 55513088 INFO: Checking skin version of: Project Mayhem III
02:39:02 M: 55513088 INFO: Skin version is: 2.1
02:39:02 M: 55513088 INFO: GUI format 720x576 PAL 4:3
02:39:02 M: 55513088 INFO: install unhandled exception filter
02:39:02 M: 55513088 INFO: creating subdirectories
02:39:02 M: 55513088 INFO: userdata folder: /home/stickman/dev/XBMC/UserData
02:39:02 M: 55513088 INFO: recording folder:
02:39:02 M: 55513088 INFO: screenshots folder:
02:39:02 M: 55513088 INFO: thumbnails folder:/home/stickman/dev/XBMC/UserData/Thumbnails
02:39:02 M: 55513088 NOTICE: Checking the Date!
02:39:02 M: 55513088 INFO: - Current Date is: 20-5-2007
02:39:02 M: 55513088 NOTICE: start dvd mediatype detection
02:39:02 M: 55513088 NOTICE: initializing playlistplayer
02:39:02 M: 55513088 NOTICE: DONE initializing playlistplayer
02:39:02 M: 55513088 NOTICE: load default skin:[Project Mayhem III]
02:39:02 M: 55513088 INFO: load skin from:/home/stickman/dev/XBMC/skin/Project Mayhem III
02:39:02 M: 55513088 INFO: delete old skin...
02:39:02 M: 55513088 INFO: Default 4:3 resolution directory is /home/stickman/dev/XBMC/skin/Project Mayhem III/PAL
02:39:02 M: 55513088 INFO: Default 16:9 resolution directory is /home/stickman/dev/XBMC/skin/Project Mayhem III/PAL16x9
02:39:02 M: 55513088 INFO: Skin version is: 2.1
02:39:02 M: 55513088 INFO: Loading skin includes from /home/stickman/dev/XBMC/skin/Project Mayhem III/PAL/includes.xml
02:39:02 M: 55386112 INFO: load fonts for skin...
02:39:02 M: 55386112 INFO: Loading fonts from /home/stickman/dev/XBMC/skin/Project Mayhem III/PAL/Font.xml
02:39:02 M: 55386112 DEBUG: Load Scaled size of font /home/stickman/dev/XBMC/media/Fonts/Arial.ttf (14): width = 38, height = 20
02:39:02 M: 55324672 DEBUG: Load Scaled size of font /home/stickman/dev/XBMC/media/Fonts/Arial.ttf (14): width = 38, height = 20
02:39:02 M: 55324672 DEBUG: Load Scaled size of font /home/stickman/dev/XBMC/media/Fonts/Arial.ttf (15): width = 41, height = 21
02:39:02 M: 55324672 DEBUG: Load Scaled size of font /home/stickman/dev/XBMC/media/Fonts/Arial.ttf (16): width = 44, height = 23
02:39:02 M: 55324672 DEBUG: Load Scaled size of font /home/stickman/dev/XBMC/media/Fonts/Arial.ttf (16): width = 44, height = 23
02:39:02 M: 55324672 INFO: load new skin...
02:39:02 M: 55324672 INFO: Skin version is: 2.1
02:39:02 M: 55324672 INFO: Loading skin file: Home.xml
02:39:02 M: 55324672 INFO: WEATHER: Downloading weather
02:39:02 M: 55324672 INFO: Get URL: http://xoap.weather.com/weather/local/GMXX0154?cc=*&unit=m&dayf=4&prod=xoap&par=1004124588&key=079f2
4145f208494
02:39:02 M: 55070720 DEBUG: Load Home.xml: 0.00ms (-0.06 ms xml load)
02:39:02 M: 55070720 INFO: Loading user windows, path /home/stickman/dev/XBMC/skin/Project Mayhem III/PAL
02:39:02 M: 55070720 INFO: Loading skin file: /home/stickman/dev/XBMC/skin/Project Mayhem III/PAL/custom2_SkinSettings.xml
02:39:02 M: 55070720 DEBUG: Load Skin XML: 36.00ms
02:39:02 M: 55070720 INFO: initialize new skin...
02:39:02 M: 55070720 INFO: Loading skin file: Pointer.xml
02:39:02 M: 55070720 DEBUG: Load Pointer.xml: 0.00ms (-0.06 ms xml load)
02:39:02 M: 55070720 DEBUG: Alloc resources: 0.00ms (0.00 ms skin load, 0.00 ms preload)
02:39:02 M: 55070720 INFO: Loading skin file: DialogVolumeBar.xml
02:39:02 M: 55070720 DEBUG: Load DialogVolumeBar.xml: 0.00ms (-0.06 ms xml load)
02:39:02 M: 55070720 DEBUG: Alloc resources: 0.00ms (0.00 ms skin load, 0.00 ms preload)
02:39:02 M: 55070720 INFO: Loading skin file: DialogSeekbar.xml
02:39:02 M: 55070720 ERROR: unable to load:/home/stickman/dev/XBMC/skin/Project Mayhem III/PAL/DialogSeekbar.xml, Line 0
Failed to open file
02:39:02 M: 55070720 DEBUG: Alloc resources: 0.00ms (0.00 ms skin load, 0.00 ms preload)
02:39:02 M: 55070720 INFO: Loading skin file: DialogKaiToast.xml
02:39:02 M: 55070720 DEBUG: Load DialogKaiToast.xml: 0.00ms (-0.06 ms xml load)
02:39:02 M: 55070720 DEBUG: Alloc resources: 0.00ms (0.00 ms skin load, 0.00 ms preload)
02:39:02 M: 55070720 INFO: Loading skin file: DialogMuteBug.xml
02:39:02 M: 55070720 DEBUG: Load DialogMuteBug.xml: 0.00ms (-0.06 ms xml load)
02:39:02 M: 55070720 DEBUG: Alloc resources: 0.00ms (0.00 ms skin load, 0.00 ms preload)
02:39:02 M: 54943744 INFO: Loading /home/stickman/dev/XBMC/skin/Project Mayhem III/sounds/sounds.xml
02:39:02 M: 54943744 INFO: skin loaded...
02:39:02 M: 54943744 DEBUG: host name = xml.weather.com
02:39:02 M: 54943744 DEBUG: Activating window ID: 10000
02:39:02 M: 54943744 DEBUG: Checking if window ID 10000 is locked.
02:39:02 M: 54181888 DEBUG: Alloc resources: 0.00ms (0.00 ms skin load, 0.00 ms preload)
02:39:02 M: 54181888 INFO: removing tempfiles
02:39:02 M: 54181888 NOTICE: initialize done
02:39:02 M: 54181888 NOTICE: Running the application...
02:39:02 M: 54181888 DEBUG: NetworkMessage - Starting network services
02:39:02 M: 56098816 INFO: Get URL: http://feeds.feedburner.com/XboxScene
02:39:02 M: 54702080 DEBUG: host name = www.l.google.com
02:39:02 M: 55336960 DEBUG: host name = feeds.feedburner.com
02:39:02 M: 55083008 INFO: 302 Redirected: http://www.google.es/
02:39:02 M: 55083008 INFO: WEATHER: Weather download successful
02:39:02 M: 54419456 DEBUG: host name = www.l.google.com
02:39:05 M: 58093568 DEBUG: Got rss feed: http://feeds.feedburner.com/XboxScene
02:39:05 M: 58093568 DEBUG: RSS feed encoding: UTF-8
02:39:05 M: 58093568 DEBUG: Parsed rss feed: http://feeds.feedburner.com/XboxScene
02:39:15 M: 58228736 NOTICE: Storing total System Uptime
02:39:15 M: 58228736 NOTICE: Saving settings
02:39:15 M: 58228736 NOTICE: Saving Unknown settings in /home/stickman/dev/XBMC/UserData/avpacksettings.xml
02:39:15 M: 58228736 NOTICE: stop all
02:39:15 M: 58228736 DEBUG: NetworkMessage - Stopping network services
02:39:15 M: 58228736 NOTICE: stop dvd detect media
02:39:15 M: 58228736 NOTICE: stop daap clients
02:39:15 M: 58228736 NOTICE: stop python
02:39:15 M: 58228736 NOTICE: clean cached files!
02:39:15 M: 58228736 NOTICE: unload skin
02:39:15 M: 58228736 WARNING: Attempted to remove window 10115 from the window manager when it didn't exist
02:39:15 M: 58228736 NOTICE: unload sections
02:39:15 M: 58228736 NOTICE: destroy
02:39:15 M: 58228736 NOTICE: stopped

jmarshall

2007-05-20, 05:21

Does glxgears work? What about some SDL apps (eg just download some simple SDL demos)

cullman

2007-05-20, 13:22

I'm a long time Linux/Windows/Xbox-xbmc user/programmer, and I have owned many shuttles and have tried to use them as HTPCs. I have switched over to Apple as my primary computing platform this year. My personal preference would be mac mini support. It has many benefits over most off the shelf shuttle type boxes. Built in IR, Bluetooth, WLAN, it's whisper quiet, small and likely to be a pretty static platform. I appreciate the fact AppleTv is cheaper but it's a somewhat closed platform, one of my main frustrations with the current Xbox as a platform is that it is a hack. It really limits the audience and the ability for your average users to get themselves out of a mess.

Even though I think the ideal platform would be mac mini. I do think that the Linux port should be the primary first effort. I think that a port from a well written linux port to os x would not be that difficult.

Another reason Linux is ideal is virtualization. I notice there is a lot of talk about what hardware this should run on, video cards, etc. I see the benefit of having a limited target platform. I think that one of the target platforms, if not the target platform should be VMWare or Parallels. This would not have been an option 6 months ago, but now both VMWare and Parallels are promising DirectX and OpenGL support (with Parallels OpenGL support already in Beta). If we fast forward to 12 or 18 months now and we have a flawless xmbc that uses a virtual target platform - both Parallels and VMWare will have pass through 3d support, off the shelf computing power even when taking the hit of virtualization will be much more powerful than the original Xbox's hardware. The end result is we get the advantage of a commercial enterprise doing the heavy lifting of hardware compatibility support, and now we have an XBMC that will run on Linux, Windows, and OSX.

Lastly, I think even if we did end up preferring a native version of xbmc (be it on linux or osx), there is an advantage to developing in a VM. Beyond the debugging, snapshotting and rollback advantages, it would allow us to all work on one hardware set on day one.

stickman

2007-05-20, 14:55

Does glxgears work? What about some SDL apps (eg just download some simple SDL demos)

Yes, glxgears works just fine.

Previous builds used to work, at least on the first ones I tried. It was before the new GL2 renderer was used.

For testing purposes I've tried mplayer with -vo gl2 and it works. Here it's the relevant output:

Starting playback...
VDec: vo config request - 720 x 576 (preferred colorspace: Planar YV12)
Could not find matching colorspace - retrying with -vf scale...
Opening video filter: [scale]
VDec: using Planar YV12 as output csp (no 0)
Movie-Aspect is 1.25:1 - prescaling to correct movie aspect.
SwScaler: using unscaled yuv420p -> bgr24 special converter
VO: [gl2] 720x576 => 720x576 BGR 24-bit
[gl2] You have OpenGL >= 1.2 capable drivers, GOOD (16bpp and BGR is ok!)
[gl2] antialiasing off
[gl2] bilinear linear
A: 15.1 V: 15.0 A-V: 0.022 ct: 0.022 377/377 12% 47% 1.2% 0 0

I tested several of these (http://www2.autistici.org/encelo/prog_gldemos.php) SDL OpenGL demos and they worked just fine (except the last one, which is an OpenGL2 demo)

Maybe it would be useful to throw some SDL debug info in the logfile: used videodriver for example or videocard capabilities...

skruven

2007-05-21, 00:22

It would be nice with some bluetooth support. Maybe something similar to salling clicker. A java program on your phone that you can use to control xbmc.

I am really excited, i like where this is going :). Thx guys!

paperclipmonkey

2007-05-21, 00:29

I'd like that in the xbox aswell, not just in linux. That and full FAT32 support and i'd never ask for anything again.

On a similar note there is a control program for XBMC that runs on phones, but it requires your PC to be on.
http://web.comhem.se/~u73504508/index.html
i tried to get it to work but it doesn't seem to like me.

cullman

2007-05-21, 00:43

I got the linux XBMC working on the Beta version of VMWare Fusion for OS X. It's exteremly slow at the moment (2 fps). But basically seems to be working. I'm surprised the fps is 2. As I know people have run Quake 3 etc under VMWare fusion, there must be something wrong.

http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/4314/xbmcosxpl7.th.png (http://img217.imageshack.us/my.php?image=xbmcosxpl7.png)

jmarshall

2007-05-21, 01:03

Nope - VMWare only has hardware accleration for windows.

Only way you'll get "reasonable" performance is to build with "make sdl_2d"

cullman

2007-05-21, 01:15

This guy (http://goddess-gate.com/dc2/index.php/post/257) claims it does have OpenGL acceleration. Regardless, it's not usable as is on VMWare. I might check out Parallels next.

jmarshall

2007-05-21, 03:09

For windows, possibly. VMWare doesn't have hardware acceleration for anything other than windows guest OS's.

cullman

2007-05-21, 08:15

jmarshal : doh! You are right, I guess I was reading what I wanted to read :)

cullman

2007-05-21, 11:04

Parallels 3.0 Beta is no better (maybe 3 fps), though, I didn't expect much as they said in their release notes that they only support it with Windows guests as well.

I'm going to see if I can get it to compile directly on OS X now...

jmarshall

2007-05-21, 12:40

As I said, build without opengl support and it'll be much snappier over VMWare. An alternative is to run an xserver on the vm'd linux box and export X to your local machine - opengl accleration may then work, but it'll still be kinda slow.

Compilation on OSX will be interesting - let us know how you get on.

Cheers,
Jonathan

ashlar

2007-05-21, 16:11

I'm not familiar with a development process but I was wondering: is there anything a regular use could do to help?

After many posts requesting development to start on a more capable platform, I feel obliged to offer my help.

ashlar

2007-05-21, 16:13

I meant a regular user.
I wonder why there's no edit function in this forum.

Gamester17

2007-05-21, 16:52

@ashlar, at this stage all non-programmers/non-developers can do is try to lobby this "XBMC Linux port project" to those already proficient in the C/C++ programming-language, do your best to convince them to volunteer (without doing it in a way that can be taken the wrong way, so do not be pushy). Developer recruiting by third-party so to speak, word of mouth, maybe you know a programmer who owns a modded/unmodded Xbox, or you you know a guy who knows a guy (friends, family, people in your sport-team, etc.), invite them over to your home and let them see XBMC in action on the Xbox or even bring your Xbox to them. Maybe you hang out at another related online community-forum for multimedia, see if anyone there is interested, etc.

...before this week is through we will try to post a public request on our news-page asking for developers, you can always wait and spread that (again, not in an unsolicitated way, as we do not want people to be put off before they will even have a change to get an first impression of XBMC in action).

skruven

2007-05-21, 18:15

i like where this is going :)

skruven

2007-05-21, 18:17

ashlar

2007-05-21, 21:52

...before this week is through we will try to post a public request on our news-page asking for developers, you can always wait and spread that (again, not in an unsolicitated way, as we do not want people to be put off before they will even have a change to get an first impression of XBMC in action).That I think I can help you with.
Anything really.

I'll eagerly wait the specs for my new XBMCPC. It feels like Christmas in a certain way... :grin:

pike

2007-05-21, 22:20

I meant a regular user.
I wonder why there's no edit function in this forum.

biggest reason is because we don't want people to be able to "take back" any silly outbursts of rage or similar.

Now that you know there's no edit, use the preview and think twice before posting.

El Piranna

2007-05-22, 00:25

here's the README for the linux port

http://xbmc.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/*checkout*/xbmc/branches/linuxport/XBMC/README.linux
(mostly posted so it's easy to find)

I was going now to write a post to ask "well, xbmc run on Ubuntu... I have Ubuntu and W98... how i can install it in a Debian way? :p" but i have found the readme explains really easy how to do it :p Thanks a lot!!! Now i have a weight reason to change my default os from W98 to Ubuntu and use my new 256 Ram card :p

P.D.: what about make it more easy if possible... making a .deb file or including xbmc on Debian? Wait a moment! xbox-linux + xbmc4linux = ... :shocked:

Spack

2007-05-22, 02:41

Hi guys,

I'm not an experimented programmer but I would like to help you to port XMBC on Linux and/or Windows... As we can see at this time the mode is to talk about "Media Centers" and XBMC is a very good Media Center. So I think that to port it on other platforms will made a representation of Open Source softwares in this market...

I'm running on Debian Sid/Windows XP, I downloaded the Linux port source code and it compiled and then ran fine... Now I would like to know how to enter in the code in order to help you...

What are your advices?

jmarshall

2007-05-22, 02:50

The best thing to do is just take a look through the code and start to understand how it fits together. Then test things out, find what works and what doesn't, and try and track down why.

As Gamester mentioned, there'll be an official statement etc. later on from the team about our plans and what we are seeking other developers to help with.

Cheers,
Jonathan

paperclipmonkey

2007-05-22, 18:17

This is meant to be cross platform eventually right?
So is the goal to also replace the windows skinning tool with this and add full functionality?

hani

2007-05-24, 17:42

El Piranna

2007-05-24, 17:49

I got this error when I try to run XboxMediaCenter on Beryl as window manager

*********************************WARN_ONCE******** *************************
File radeon_mm.c function radeon_mm_alloc line 216
Ran out of GART memory (for 1048576)!
Please consider adjusting GARTSize option.
************************************************** *************************
Error: Could not get dma buffer... exiting

Can someone explain? I'm trying to understand how the code works.

I don't know what GART is, but it seems is a problem of Radeon & Beryl. Here (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=206642) it seems it tolds a solution, told me if it worked to you.

P.D.: At least i found why i could be able to run Beryl... my i810 only have 3D Acel with 16bits and i had 24bits :p In any case, it was very slouly, i'll go to see later if XBMC runs on my Linux box ;)

hani

2007-05-24, 18:44

Thanx that worked for me.

El Piranna

2007-05-25, 01:27

At least i could be able to compile and launch XBMC on my Ubuntu :p Now, the problems (obviusly...): when i launch it, there's no window.

Yesterday i tried it (with a broken T3ch compilation, this is why it didn't worked) with 24bpp... so i didn't hadded 3D accel (it seems my i810 only have hardware 3D accel with 16bpp, but i'm not sure if is because the Xorg driver or a hardware feature. It's said on internet this last, but on W98 SE i could be able to run Quake3 with no problems on my Pentium3 while glxgears gets broken at 5 seconds on the same machine...).

Today i have launched it with hardware 3D accel and, of couse, 16bpp, but no window is showed... althought the procces is running on the system (really, there were several XboxMediaCenter proccess running on my system althought i only launched it one time... :oo: ) and the logs output seems to be ok, and when i killed it (first time with killall and "the rebeld proccess" with kill -9 because i launched it with double-click, and the second one with Control-C because i launched it from terminal) it finished correctly and logs showed it. Here they are (i'll have to cut it out since the logs has passed out the forum limits...):

The first one, with double-click, and errors about no config (logical, it first boot ;) ):
23:47:29 M: 4616192 NOTICE: -----------------------------------------------------------------------
23:47:30 M: 4554752 NOTICE: Starting XBoxMediaCenter. Built on May 24 2007
23:47:30 M: 4554752 NOTICE: Q is mapped to: /home/piranna/XBMC
23:47:30 M: 4554752 NOTICE: The executeable running is: /home/piranna/XBMC/XboxMediaCenter
23:47:30 M: 4554752 NOTICE: Log File is located: /home/piranna/XBMC/xbmc.log
23:47:30 M: 4554752 NOTICE: -----------------------------------------------------------------------
23:47:30 M: 4554752 NOTICE: Setup SDL
23:47:30 M: 4595712 NOTICE: load settings...
23:47:30 M: 4595712 NOTICE: loading /home/piranna/XBMC/UserData/guisettings.xml
23:47:30 M: 4595712 ERROR: Unable to load /home/piranna/XBMC/UserData/guisettings.xml, creating new /home/piranna/XBMC/UserData/guisettings.xml with default values
23:47:30 M: 4534272 NOTICE: Saving Unknown settings in /home/piranna/XBMC/UserData/avpacksettings.xml
23:47:30 M: 4415488 NOTICE: Saving Unknown settings in /home/piranna/XBMC/UserData/avpacksettings.xml
23:47:30 M: 4329472 NOTICE: Getting hardware information now...
23:47:30 M: 4329472 NOTICE: Checking resolution 10
23:47:30 M: 4329472 NOTICE: Setting autoresolution mode 6
23:47:30 M: 4329472 NOTICE: Per AV pack settings are on
23:47:30 M: 4329472 NOTICE: Unknown found : loading /home/piranna/XBMC/UserData/avpacksettings.xml
23:47:30 M: 4329472 NOTICE: Getting hardware information now...
23:47:30 M: 4329472 NOTICE: Checking resolution 10
23:47:30 M: 4329472 NOTICE: Setting autoresolution mode 6
23:47:30 M: 4329472 NOTICE: /home/piranna/XBMC/UserData/sources.xml
23:47:30 M: 4329472 ERROR: Load Error loading /home/piranna/XBMC/UserData/sources.xml: Line 0, Failed to open file
23:47:30 M: 4268032 INFO: Checking skinpath existance, and existence of keymap.xml:Q:\skin...
23:47:30 M: 4268032 INFO: load language info file:/home/piranna/XBMC/language/English/langinfo.xml
23:47:30 M: 4620288 INFO: load language file:/home/piranna/XBMC/language/English/strings.xml
23:47:30 M: 4628480 INFO: load keymapping
23:47:30 M: 4628480 INFO: Loading /home/piranna/XBMC/UserData/Keymap.xml
23:47:30 M: 4628480 INFO: Checking skin version of: Project Mayhem III
23:47:30 M: 4567040 INFO: Skin version is: 2.1
23:47:30 M: 4567040 INFO: GUI format 720x576 PAL 4:3
23:47:30 M: 4567040 INFO: install unhandled exception filter
23:47:30 M: 4567040 INFO: creating subdirectories
23:47:30 M: 4567040 INFO: userdata folder: /home/piranna/XBMC/UserData
23:47:30 M: 4567040 INFO: recording folder:
23:47:30 M: 4567040 INFO: screenshots folder:
23:47:30 M: 4505600 INFO: thumbnails folder:/home/piranna/XBMC/UserData/Thumbnails
23:47:30 M: 4382720 NOTICE: Checking the Date!
23:47:30 M: 4382720 INFO: - Current Date is: 24-5-2007
23:47:30 M: 4382720 NOTICE: start dvd mediatype detection
23:47:30 M: 4382720 NOTICE: initializing playlistplayer
23:47:30 M: 4382720 NOTICE: DONE initializing playlistplayer
23:47:30 M: 4382720 NOTICE: load default skin:[Project Mayhem III]
23:47:30 M: 4382720 INFO: load skin from:/home/piranna/XBMC/skin/Project Mayhem III
23:47:30 M: 4382720 INFO: delete old skin...
23:47:30 M: 4382720 INFO: Default 4:3 resolution directory is /home/piranna/XBMC/skin/Project Mayhem III/PAL
23:47:30 M: 4382720 INFO: Default 16:9 resolution directory is /home/piranna/XBMC/skin/Project Mayhem III/PAL16x9
23:47:30 M: 4382720 INFO: Skin version is: 2.1
23:47:30 M: 4382720 INFO: Loading skin includes from /home/piranna/XBMC/skin/Project Mayhem III/PAL/includes.xml
23:47:31 M: 4399104 INFO: load fonts for skin...
23:47:31 M: 4399104 INFO: Loading fonts from /home/piranna/XBMC/skin/Project Mayhem III/PAL/Font.xml
23:47:31 M: 4399104 WARNING: file doesnt have <fontset> with name 'Default', defaulting to first fontset
23:47:31 M: 4399104 INFO: Loading fonts from /home/piranna/XBMC/skin/Project Mayhem III/PAL/Font.xml
23:47:31 M: 4399104 DEBUG: Load Scaled size of font /home/piranna/XBMC/media/Fonts/Arial.ttf (14): width = 38, height = 20
23:47:31 M: 4399104 DEBUG: Load Scaled size of font /home/piranna/XBMC/media/Fonts/Arial.ttf (14): width = 38, height = 20
23:47:31 M: 4399104 DEBUG: Load Scaled size of font /home/piranna/XBMC/media/Fonts/Arial.ttf (15): width = 41, height = 21
23:47:31 M: 4399104 DEBUG: Load Scaled size of font /home/piranna/XBMC/media/Fonts/Arial.ttf (16): width = 44, height = 23
23:47:31 M: 4399104 DEBUG: Load Scaled size of font /home/piranna/XBMC/media/Fonts/Arial.ttf (16): width = 44, height = 23
23:47:31 M: 4399104 INFO: load new skin...
23:47:31 M: 4399104 INFO: Skin version is: 2.1
23:47:31 M: 4399104 INFO: Loading skin file: Home.xml
23:47:31 M: 4186112 INFO: WEATHER: Downloading weather
23:47:31 M: 4182016 INFO: Get URL: http://xoap.weather.com/weather/local/GMXX0154?cc=*&unit=m&dayf=4&prod=xoap&par=1004124588&key=079f24145f208494
23:47:31 M: 4780032 DEBUG: Load Home.xml: 0.00ms (-0.03 ms xml load)
23:47:31 M: 4780032 INFO: Loading user windows, path /home/piranna/XBMC/skin/Project Mayhem III/PAL
23:47:31 M: 4780032 INFO: Loading skin file: /home/piranna/XBMC/skin/Project Mayhem III/PAL/custom2_SkinSettings.xml
23:47:31 M: 4657152 DEBUG: Load Skin XML: 215.00ms
23:47:31 M: 4657152 INFO: initialize new skin...
23:47:31 M: 4657152 INFO: Loading skin file: Pointer.xml
23:47:31 M: 4657152 DEBUG: Load Pointer.xml: 0.00ms (-0.03 ms xml load)
23:47:31 M: 4399104 DEBUG: Alloc resources: 0.00ms (0.00 ms skin load, 0.00 ms preload)
23:47:31 M: 4399104 INFO: Loading skin file: DialogVolumeBar.xml
23:47:31 M: 4399104 DEBUG: Load DialogVolumeBar.xml: 0.00ms (-0.03 ms xml load)
23:47:31 M: 4399104 DEBUG: Alloc resources: 0.00ms (0.00 ms skin load, 0.00 ms preload)
23:47:31 M: 4399104 INFO: Loading skin file: DialogSeekbar.xml
23:47:31 M: 4399104 ERROR: unable to load:/home/piranna/XBMC/skin/Project Mayhem III/PAL/DialogSeekbar.xml, Line 0
Failed to open file
23:47:31 M: 4399104 DEBUG: Alloc resources: 0.00ms (0.00 ms skin load, 0.00 ms preload)
23:47:31 M: 4399104 INFO: Loading skin file: DialogKaiToast.xml
23:47:31 M: 4399104 DEBUG: host name = xml.weather.com
23:47:31 M: 4399104 DEBUG: Load DialogKaiToast.xml: 0.00ms (-0.03 ms xml load)
23:47:31 M: 4399104 DEBUG: Alloc resources: 0.00ms (0.00 ms skin load, 0.00 ms preload)
23:47:31 M: 4399104 INFO: Loading skin file: DialogMuteBug.xml
23:47:31 M: 4399104 DEBUG: Load DialogMuteBug.xml: 0.00ms (-0.03 ms xml load)
23:47:31 M: 4399104 DEBUG: Alloc resources: 0.00ms (0.00 ms skin load, 0.00 ms preload)
23:47:31 M: 4780032 INFO: Loading /home/piranna/XBMC/skin/Project Mayhem III/sounds/sounds.xml
23:47:31 M: 4780032 INFO: skin loaded...
23:47:31 M: 4521984 INFO: Set page size
23:47:31 M: 4521984 INFO: Set default cache size
23:47:31 M: 4460544 INFO: creating version table
23:47:32 M: 4337664 INFO: WEATHER: Weather download successful
23:47:32 M: 4276224 INFO: create view table
23:47:32 M: 4771840 INFO: create view index
23:47:33 M: 8310784 INFO: create view - window index
23:47:33 M: 8253440 DEBUG: Activating window ID: 10000
23:47:33 M: 8253440 DEBUG: Checking if window ID 10000 is locked.
23:47:33 M: 7098368 DEBUG: Alloc resources: 0.00ms (0.00 ms skin load, 0.00 ms preload)
23:47:33 M: 7098368 INFO: removing tempfiles
23:47:33 M: 7098368 NOTICE: initialize done
23:47:33 M: 7098368 NOTICE: Running the application...
23:47:33 M: 7098368 DEBUG: NetworkMessage - Starting network services
23:47:33 M: 4763648 DEBUG: host name = www.l.google.com
23:47:33 M: 6590464 INFO: Get URL: http://feeds.feedburner.com/XboxScene
23:47:33 M: 4816896 INFO: 302 Redirected: http://www.google.es/
23:47:33 M: 4325376 DEBUG: host name = 6-allhosts
23:47:33 M: 4325376 ERROR: Unable to connect to feeds.feedburner.com: 111
23:47:33 M: 4325376 INFO: Get URL: http://feeds.feedburner.com/XboxScene
23:47:33 M: 4325376 ERROR: Unable to connect to feeds.feedburner.com: 111
23:47:33 M: 4325376 INFO: Get URL: http://feeds.feedburner.com/XboxScene
23:47:33 M: 4325376 ERROR: Unable to connect to feeds.feedburner.com: 111
23:47:33 M: 8032256 DEBUG: host name = www.l.google.com

El Piranna

2007-05-25, 01:32

Continue of original log from the point where i killed XboxMediaCenter:
23:55:05 M: 5308416 NOTICE: Storing total System Uptime
23:55:05 M: 5308416 NOTICE: Saving settings
23:55:05 M: 4694016 NOTICE: Saving Unknown settings in /home/piranna/XBMC/UserData/avpacksettings.xml
23:55:05 M: 4694016 NOTICE: stop all
23:55:05 M: 4694016 DEBUG: NetworkMessage - Stopping network services
23:55:05 M: 4694016 NOTICE: stop dvd detect media
23:55:05 M: 6352896 NOTICE: stop daap clients
23:55:05 M: 6352896 NOTICE: stop python
23:55:05 M: 6352896 NOTICE: clean cached files!
23:55:05 M: 6352896 NOTICE: unload skin
23:55:05 M: 6123520 INFO: Set page size
23:55:05 M: 6123520 INFO: Set default cache size
23:55:05 M: 6844416 INFO: creating version table
23:55:05 M: 6844416 INFO: create artist table
23:55:05 M: 6844416 INFO: create album table
23:55:05 M: 6844416 INFO: create genre table
23:55:06 M: 6844416 INFO: create path table
23:55:06 M: 6598656 INFO: create song table
23:55:06 M: 6529024 INFO: create albuminfo table
23:55:06 M: 5775360 INFO: create albuminfosong table
23:55:06 M: 4730880 INFO: create thumb table
23:55:06 M: 5038080 INFO: create exartistsong table
23:55:06 M: 6389760 INFO: create extragenresong table
23:55:06 M: 6389760 INFO: create exartistalbum table
23:55:06 M: 6389760 INFO: create exgenrealbum table
23:55:06 M: 6389760 INFO: create exartistsong index
23:55:07 M: 6144000 INFO: create exgenresong index
23:55:07 M: 6074368 INFO: create exartistalbum index
23:55:07 M: 6074368 INFO: create exgenrealbum index
23:55:07 M: 6074368 INFO: create album index
23:55:07 M: 6074368 INFO: create genre index
23:55:07 M: 6074368 INFO: create artist index
23:55:07 M: 6074368 INFO: create path index
23:55:07 M: 6074368 INFO: create song index
23:55:07 M: 6012928 INFO: create song index1
23:55:07 M: 6012928 INFO: create song index2
23:55:07 M: 5951488 INFO: create thumb index
23:55:07 M: 5890048 INFO: create albuminfo trigger
23:55:07 M: 5890048 INFO: create song view
23:55:07 M: 5890048 INFO: create album view
23:55:07 M: 5890048 NOTICE: unload sections
23:55:07 M: 5890048 NOTICE: destroy
23:55:07 M: 5890048 NOTICE: stopped

And the second one, launched from terminal:
23:58:19 M: 22908928 NOTICE: -----------------------------------------------------------------------
23:58:19 M: 22908928 NOTICE: Starting XBoxMediaCenter. Built on May 24 2007
23:58:19 M: 22908928 NOTICE: Q is mapped to: /home/piranna/XBMC
23:58:19 M: 22908928 NOTICE: The executeable running is: /home/piranna/XBMC/XboxMediaCenter
23:58:19 M: 22908928 NOTICE: Log File is located: /home/piranna/XBMC/xbmc.log
23:58:19 M: 22908928 NOTICE: -----------------------------------------------------------------------
23:58:19 M: 22908928 NOTICE: Setup SDL
23:58:19 M: 20852736 NOTICE: load settings...
23:58:19 M: 20852736 NOTICE: loading /home/piranna/XBMC/UserData/guisettings.xml
23:58:19 M: 20729856 NOTICE: Getting hardware information now...
23:58:19 M: 20729856 NOTICE: Checking resolution 10
23:58:19 M: 20729856 NOTICE: Setting autoresolution mode 6
23:58:19 M: 20729856 NOTICE: Per AV pack settings are on
23:58:19 M: 20729856 NOTICE: Unknown found : loading /home/piranna/XBMC/UserData/avpacksettings.xml
23:58:19 M: 20729856 NOTICE: Getting hardware information now...
23:58:19 M: 20729856 NOTICE: Checking resolution 10
23:58:19 M: 20729856 NOTICE: Setting autoresolution mode 6
23:58:19 M: 20729856 NOTICE: /home/piranna/XBMC/UserData/sources.xml
23:58:19 M: 20729856 ERROR: Load Error loading /home/piranna/XBMC/UserData/sources.xml: Line 0, Failed to open file
23:58:19 M: 20729856 INFO: Checking skinpath existance, and existence of keymap.xml:Q:\skin...
23:58:19 M: 20729856 INFO: load language info file:/home/piranna/XBMC/language/English/langinfo.xml
23:58:19 M: 20422656 INFO: load language file:/home/piranna/XBMC/language/English/strings.xml
23:58:19 M: 20115456 INFO: load keymapping
23:58:19 M: 20115456 INFO: Loading /home/piranna/XBMC/UserData/Keymap.xml
23:58:19 M: 20054016 INFO: Checking skin version of: Project Mayhem III
23:58:19 M: 20054016 INFO: Skin version is: 2.1
23:58:19 M: 20054016 INFO: GUI format 720x576 PAL 4:3
23:58:19 M: 20054016 INFO: install unhandled exception filter
23:58:19 M: 20054016 INFO: creating subdirectories
23:58:19 M: 20054016 INFO: userdata folder: /home/piranna/XBMC/UserData
23:58:19 M: 20054016 INFO: recording folder:
23:58:19 M: 20054016 INFO: screenshots folder:
23:58:19 M: 20054016 INFO: thumbnails folder:/home/piranna/XBMC/UserData/Thumbnails
23:58:19 M: 20054016 NOTICE: Checking the Date!
23:58:19 M: 20054016 INFO: - Current Date is: 24-5-2007
23:58:19 M: 20054016 NOTICE: start dvd mediatype detection
23:58:19 M: 20054016 NOTICE: initializing playlistplayer
23:58:19 M: 20054016 NOTICE: DONE initializing playlistplayer
23:58:19 M: 20054016 NOTICE: load default skin:[Project Mayhem III]
23:58:19 M: 20054016 INFO: load skin from:/home/piranna/XBMC/skin/Project Mayhem III
23:58:19 M: 20054016 INFO: delete old skin...
23:58:19 M: 20054016 INFO: Default 4:3 resolution directory is /home/piranna/XBMC/skin/Project Mayhem III/PAL
23:58:19 M: 20054016 INFO: Default 16:9 resolution directory is /home/piranna/XBMC/skin/Project Mayhem III/PAL16x9
23:58:19 M: 20054016 INFO: Skin version is: 2.1
23:58:19 M: 20054016 INFO: Loading skin includes from /home/piranna/XBMC/skin/Project Mayhem III/PAL/includes.xml
23:58:19 M: 19554304 INFO: load fonts for skin...
23:58:19 M: 19554304 INFO: Loading fonts from /home/piranna/XBMC/skin/Project Mayhem III/PAL/Font.xml
23:58:19 M: 19554304 WARNING: file doesnt have <fontset> with name 'Default', defaulting to first fontset
23:58:19 M: 19554304 INFO: Loading fonts from /home/piranna/XBMC/skin/Project Mayhem III/PAL/Font.xml
23:58:19 M: 19554304 DEBUG: Load Scaled size of font /home/piranna/XBMC/media/Fonts/Arial.ttf (14): width = 38, height = 20
23:58:19 M: 19554304 DEBUG: Load Scaled size of font /home/piranna/XBMC/media/Fonts/Arial.ttf (14): width = 38, height = 20
23:58:19 M: 19554304 DEBUG: Load Scaled size of font /home/piranna/XBMC/media/Fonts/Arial.ttf (15): width = 41, height = 21
23:58:19 M: 19554304 DEBUG: Load Scaled size of font /home/piranna/XBMC/media/Fonts/Arial.ttf (16): width = 44, height = 23
23:58:19 M: 19554304 DEBUG: Load Scaled size of font /home/piranna/XBMC/media/Fonts/Arial.ttf (16): width = 44, height = 23
23:58:19 M: 19554304 INFO: load new skin...
23:58:19 M: 19554304 INFO: Skin version is: 2.1
23:58:19 M: 19554304 INFO: Loading skin file: Home.xml
23:58:19 M: 19492864 INFO: WEATHER: Downloading weather
23:58:19 M: 19492864 INFO: Get URL: http://xoap.weather.com/weather/local/GMXX0154?cc=*&unit=m&dayf=4&prod=xoap&par=1004124588&key=079f24145f208494
23:58:19 M: 19369984 DEBUG: Load Home.xml: 0.00ms (-0.06 ms xml load)
23:58:19 M: 19369984 INFO: Loading user windows, path /home/piranna/XBMC/skin/Project Mayhem III/PAL
23:58:19 M: 19369984 INFO: Loading skin file: /home/piranna/XBMC/skin/Project Mayhem III/PAL/custom2_SkinSettings.xml
23:58:19 M: 19369984 DEBUG: Load Skin XML: 74.00ms
23:58:19 M: 19369984 INFO: initialize new skin...
23:58:19 M: 19369984 INFO: Loading skin file: Pointer.xml
23:58:19 M: 19369984 DEBUG: Load Pointer.xml: 0.00ms (-0.06 ms xml load)
23:58:19 M: 19308544 DEBUG: Alloc resources: 0.00ms (0.00 ms skin load, 0.00 ms preload)
23:58:19 M: 19308544 INFO: Loading skin file: DialogVolumeBar.xml
23:58:19 M: 19308544 DEBUG: Load DialogVolumeBar.xml: 0.00ms (-0.06 ms xml load)
23:58:19 M: 19308544 DEBUG: Alloc resources: 0.00ms (0.00 ms skin load, 0.00 ms preload)
23:58:19 M: 19308544 INFO: Loading skin file: DialogSeekbar.xml
23:58:19 M: 19308544 ERROR: unable to load:/home/piranna/XBMC/skin/Project Mayhem III/PAL/DialogSeekbar.xml, Line 0
Failed to open file
23:58:19 M: 19308544 DEBUG: Alloc resources: 0.00ms (0.00 ms skin load, 0.00 ms preload)
23:58:19 M: 19308544 INFO: Loading skin file: DialogKaiToast.xml
23:58:19 M: 19308544 DEBUG: Load DialogKaiToast.xml: 0.00ms (-0.06 ms xml load)
23:58:19 M: 19308544 DEBUG: Alloc resources: 0.00ms (0.00 ms skin load, 0.00 ms preload)
23:58:19 M: 19308544 INFO: Loading skin file: DialogMuteBug.xml
23:58:19 M: 19308544 DEBUG: Load DialogMuteBug.xml: 0.00ms (-0.06 ms xml load)
23:58:19 M: 19308544 DEBUG: Alloc resources: 0.00ms (0.00 ms skin load, 0.00 ms preload)
23:58:19 M: 19177472 INFO: Loading /home/piranna/XBMC/skin/Project Mayhem III/sounds/sounds.xml
23:58:19 M: 19116032 INFO: skin loaded...
23:58:19 M: 20135936 DEBUG: Activating window ID: 10000
23:58:19 M: 20135936 DEBUG: Checking if window ID 10000 is locked.
23:58:19 M: 18108416 DEBUG: host name = xml.weather.com
23:58:19 M: 17801216 DEBUG: Alloc resources: 0.00ms (0.00 ms skin load, 0.00 ms preload)
23:58:19 M: 17739776 INFO: removing tempfiles
23:58:19 M: 17739776 NOTICE: initialize done
23:58:19 M: 17739776 NOTICE: Running the application...
23:58:19 M: 17739776 DEBUG: NetworkMessage - Starting network services
23:58:20 M: 16388096 DEBUG: host name = www.l.google.com
23:58:20 M: 16756736 INFO: Get URL: http://feeds.feedburner.com/XboxScene
23:58:20 M: 14422016 INFO: 302 Redirected: http://www.google.es/
23:58:20 M: 14225408 INFO: WEATHER: Weather download successful
23:58:21 M: 15114240 DEBUG: host name = feeds.feedburner.com
23:58:21 M: 18493440 DEBUG: host name = www.l.google.com

El Piranna

2007-05-25, 01:34

And finnally from the point where XboxScene RSS is downloaded and start the proccess of quit using Control-C
23:58:23 M: 18493440 DEBUG: Got rss feed: http://feeds.feedburner.com/XboxScene
23:58:23 M: 18493440 DEBUG: RSS feed encoding: UTF-8
23:58:23 M: 18493440 DEBUG: Parsed rss feed: http://feeds.feedburner.com/XboxScene
23:58:47 M: 13168640 NOTICE: Storing total System Uptime
23:58:47 M: 13168640 NOTICE: Saving settings
23:58:47 M: 13168640 NOTICE: Saving Unknown settings in /home/piranna/XBMC/UserData/avpacksettings.xml
23:58:47 M: 13168640 NOTICE: stop all
23:58:47 M: 13168640 DEBUG: NetworkMessage - Stopping network services
23:58:47 M: 13168640 NOTICE: stop dvd detect media
23:58:47 M: 13168640 NOTICE: stop daap clients
23:58:47 M: 13168640 NOTICE: stop python
23:58:47 M: 13168640 NOTICE: clean cached files!
23:58:47 M: 13168640 NOTICE: unload skin
23:58:47 M: 12062720 NOTICE: unload sections
23:58:47 M: 12062720 NOTICE: destroy
23:58:47 M: 12062720 NOTICE: stopped

And here the terminal output (i launched it the second time with -v parm thinking about it probably would tell me something interesting here... ;) ):
23:58:19 M: 22908928 NOTICE: -----------------------------------------------------------------------
23:58:19 M: 22908928 NOTICE: Starting XBoxMediaCenter. Built on May 24 2007
23:58:19 M: 22908928 NOTICE: Q is mapped to: /home/piranna/XBMC
23:58:19 M: 22908928 NOTICE: The executeable running is: /home/piranna/XBMC/XboxMediaCenter
23:58:19 M: 22908928 NOTICE: Log File is located: /home/piranna/XBMC/xbmc.log
23:58:19 M: 22908928 NOTICE: -----------------------------------------------------------------------
23:58:19 M: 22908928 NOTICE: Setup SDL
23:58:19 M: 20852736 NOTICE: load settings...
23:58:19 M: 20852736 NOTICE: loading /home/piranna/XBMC/UserData/guisettings.xml
23:58:19 M: 20729856 NOTICE: Getting hardware information now...
23:58:19 M: 20729856 NOTICE: Checking resolution 10
23:58:19 M: 20729856 NOTICE: Setting autoresolution mode 6
23:58:19 M: 20729856 NOTICE: Per AV pack settings are on
23:58:19 M: 20729856 NOTICE: Unknown found : loading /home/piranna/XBMC/UserData/avpacksettings.xml
23:58:19 M: 20729856 NOTICE: Getting hardware information now...
23:58:19 M: 20729856 NOTICE: Checking resolution 10
23:58:19 M: 20729856 NOTICE: Setting autoresolution mode 6
23:58:19 M: 20729856 NOTICE: /home/piranna/XBMC/UserData/sources.xml
23:58:19 M: 20729856 ERROR: Load Error loading /home/piranna/XBMC/UserData/sources.xml: Line 0, Failed to open file
23:58:19 M: 20729856 INFO: Checking skinpath existance, and existence of keymap.xml:Q:\skin...
23:58:19 M: 20729856 INFO: load language info file:/home/piranna/XBMC/language/English/langinfo.xml
23:58:19 M: 20422656 INFO: load language file:/home/piranna/XBMC/language/English/strings.xml
23:58:19 M: 20115456 INFO: load keymapping
23:58:19 M: 20115456 INFO: Loading /home/piranna/XBMC/UserData/Keymap.xml
23:58:19 M: 20054016 INFO: Checking skin version of: Project Mayhem III
23:58:19 M: 20054016 INFO: Skin version is: 2.1
23:58:19 M: 20054016 INFO: GUI format 720x576 PAL 4:3
23:58:19 M: 20054016 INFO: install unhandled exception filter
23:58:19 M: 20054016 INFO: creating subdirectories
23:58:19 M: 20054016 INFO: userdata folder: /home/piranna/XBMC/UserData
23:58:19 M: 20054016 INFO: recording folder:
23:58:19 M: 20054016 INFO: screenshots folder:
23:58:19 M: 20054016 INFO: thumbnails folder:/home/piranna/XBMC/UserData/Thumbnails
23:58:19 M: 20054016 NOTICE: Checking the Date!
23:58:19 M: 20054016 INFO: - Current Date is: 24-5-2007
23:58:19 M: 20054016 NOTICE: start dvd mediatype detection
23:58:19 M: 20054016 NOTICE: initializing playlistplayer
23:58:19 M: 20054016 NOTICE: DONE initializing playlistplayer
23:58:19 M: 20054016 NOTICE: load default skin:[Project Mayhem III]
23:58:19 M: 20054016 INFO: load skin from:/home/piranna/XBMC/skin/Project Mayhem III
23:58:19 M: 20054016 INFO: delete old skin...
23:58:19 M: 20054016 INFO: Default 4:3 resolution directory is /home/piranna/XBMC/skin/Project Mayhem III/PAL
23:58:19 M: 20054016 INFO: Default 16:9 resolution directory is /home/piranna/XBMC/skin/Project Mayhem III/PAL16x9
23:58:19 M: 20054016 INFO: Skin version is: 2.1
23:58:19 M: 20054016 INFO: Loading skin includes from /home/piranna/XBMC/skin/Project Mayhem III/PAL/includes.xml
23:58:19 M: 19554304 INFO: load fonts for skin...
23:58:19 M: 19554304 INFO: Loading fonts from /home/piranna/XBMC/skin/Project Mayhem III/PAL/Font.xml
23:58:19 M: 19554304 WARNING: file doesnt have <fontset> with name 'Default', defaulting to first fontset
23:58:19 M: 19554304 INFO: Loading fonts from /home/piranna/XBMC/skin/Project Mayhem III/PAL/Font.xml
23:58:19 M: 19554304 DEBUG: Load Scaled size of font /home/piranna/XBMC/media/Fonts/Arial.ttf (14): width = 38, height = 20
23:58:19 M: 19554304 DEBUG: Load Scaled size of font /home/piranna/XBMC/media/Fonts/Arial.ttf (14): width = 38, height = 20
23:58:19 M: 19554304 DEBUG: Load Scaled size of font /home/piranna/XBMC/media/Fonts/Arial.ttf (15): width = 41, height = 21
23:58:19 M: 19554304 DEBUG: Load Scaled size of font /home/piranna/XBMC/media/Fonts/Arial.ttf (16): width = 44, height = 23
23:58:19 M: 19554304 DEBUG: Load Scaled size of font /home/piranna/XBMC/media/Fonts/Arial.ttf (16): width = 44, height = 23
23:58:19 M: 19554304 INFO: load new skin...
23:58:19 M: 19554304 INFO: Skin version is: 2.1
23:58:19 M: 19554304 INFO: Loading skin file: Home.xml
23:58:19 M: 19492864 INFO: WEATHER: Downloading weather
23:58:19 M: 19492864 INFO: Get URL: http://xoap.weather.com/weather/local/GMXX0154?cc=*&unit=m&dayf=4&prod=xoap&par=1004124588&key=079f24145f208494
23:58:19 M: 19369984 DEBUG: Load Home.xml: 0.00ms (-0.06 ms xml load)
23:58:19 M: 19369984 INFO: Loading user windows, path /home/piranna/XBMC/skin/Project Mayhem III/PAL
23:58:19 M: 19369984 INFO: Loading skin file: /home/piranna/XBMC/skin/Project Mayhem III/PAL/custom2_SkinSettings.xml
23:58:19 M: 19369984 DEBUG: Load Skin XML: 74.00ms
23:58:19 M: 19369984 INFO: initialize new skin...
23:58:19 M: 19369984 INFO: Loading skin file: Pointer.xml
23:58:19 M: 19369984 DEBUG: Load Pointer.xml: 0.00ms (-0.06 ms xml load)
23:58:19 M: 19308544 DEBUG: Alloc resources: 0.00ms (0.00 ms skin load, 0.00 ms preload)
23:58:19 M: 19308544 INFO: Loading skin file: DialogVolumeBar.xml
23:58:19 M: 19308544 DEBUG: Load DialogVolumeBar.xml: 0.00ms (-0.06 ms xml load)
23:58:19 M: 19308544 DEBUG: Alloc resources: 0.00ms (0.00 ms skin load, 0.00 ms preload)
23:58:19 M: 19308544 INFO: Loading skin file: DialogSeekbar.xml
23:58:19 M: 19308544 ERROR: unable to load:/home/piranna/XBMC/skin/Project Mayhem III/PAL/DialogSeekbar.xml, Line 0
Failed to open file
23:58:19 M: 19308544 DEBUG: Alloc resources: 0.00ms (0.00 ms skin load, 0.00 ms preload)
23:58:19 M: 19308544 INFO: Loading skin file: DialogKaiToast.xml
23:58:19 M: 19308544 DEBUG: Load DialogKaiToast.xml: 0.00ms (-0.06 ms xml load)
23:58:19 M: 19308544 DEBUG: Alloc resources: 0.00ms (0.00 ms skin load, 0.00 ms preload)
23:58:19 M: 19308544 INFO: Loading skin file: DialogMuteBug.xml
23:58:19 M: 19308544 DEBUG: Load DialogMuteBug.xml: 0.00ms (-0.06 ms xml load)
23:58:19 M: 19308544 DEBUG: Alloc resources: 0.00ms (0.00 ms skin load, 0.00 ms preload)
23:58:19 M: 19177472 INFO: Loading /home/piranna/XBMC/skin/Project Mayhem III/sounds/sounds.xml
23:58:19 M: 19116032 INFO: skin loaded...
23:58:19 M: 20135936 DEBUG: Activating window ID: 10000
23:58:19 M: 20135936 DEBUG: Checking if window ID 10000 is locked.
23:58:19 M: 18108416 DEBUG: host name = xml.weather.com
23:58:19 M: 17801216 DEBUG: Alloc resources: 0.00ms (0.00 ms skin load, 0.00 ms preload)
23:58:19 M: 17739776 INFO: removing tempfiles
23:58:19 M: 17739776 NOTICE: initialize done
23:58:19 M: 17739776 NOTICE: Running the application...
23:58:19 M: 17739776 DEBUG: NetworkMessage - Starting network services
23:58:20 M: 16388096 DEBUG: host name = www.l.google.com
23:58:20 M: 16756736 INFO: Get URL: http://feeds.feedburner.com/XboxScene
23:58:20 M: 14422016 INFO: 302 Redirected: http://www.google.es/
23:58:20 M: 14225408 INFO: WEATHER: Weather download successful
23:58:21 M: 15114240 DEBUG: host name = feeds.feedburner.com
23:58:21 M: 18493440 DEBUG: host name = www.l.google.com
23:58:23 M: 18493440 DEBUG: Got rss feed: http://feeds.feedburner.com/XboxScene
23:58:23 M: 18493440 DEBUG: RSS feed encoding: UTF-8
23:58:23 M: 18493440 DEBUG: Parsed rss feed: http://feeds.feedburner.com/XboxScene
23:58:47 M: 13168640 NOTICE: Storing total System Uptime
23:58:47 M: 13168640 NOTICE: Saving settings
23:58:47 M: 13168640 NOTICE: Saving Unknown settings in /home/piranna/XBMC/UserData/avpacksettings.xml
23:58:47 M: 13168640 NOTICE: stop all
23:58:47 M: 13168640 DEBUG: NetworkMessage - Stopping network services
23:58:47 M: 13168640 NOTICE: stop dvd detect media
23:58:47 M: 13168640 NOTICE: stop daap clients
23:58:47 M: 13168640 NOTICE: stop python
23:58:47 M: 13168640 NOTICE: clean cached files!
23:58:47 M: 13168640 NOTICE: unload skin
23:58:47 M: 12062720 NOTICE: unload sections
23:58:47 M: 12062720 NOTICE: destroy
23:58:47 M: 12062720 NOTICE: stopped

(Yes, Neo it my computer name. It's the last one that i have found on the trash, pretty, powerfull, compact... and is a Nec. New, Nec... Neo :D )

El Piranna

2007-05-25, 01:35

I hope this logs would be usefull to someone to tell me about why i can't be able to launch XboxMediaCenter on my Ubuntu to play a little with scripts. My machine is a Pentium3 1.1Ghz, 320 RAM, 512 swap (really 509), i810 graphic chip (shared memory... maybe is here the problem? I repeat: yesterday i was able to see the window and the XBMC logo...) running with hardware 3D accel at 1024x768x16bpp on Ubuntu Feisty Fawn 7.04. I don't have Beryl or any other composite system because although i could be able to launch it the system got blobly and slowly and mouse gave away a lot of trash on the screen.

And please, PLEASE, don't thread with me as a spammer: i have used this all four post to show up the most complete possible logs to be usefull...:sad:

tslayer

2007-05-25, 01:42

I didn't realize support/bug reports were taken for the linux port... I could be wrong..

El Piranna

2007-05-25, 01:46

I didn't realize support/bug reports were taken for the linux port... I could be wrong..

Well, at least i hope if all this data is useless maybe someone can help me from another point... Maybe the logs would be useful for another person, so it wasn't time lost :p

I'll try a little harder other day (i must go to sleep and i have exams in the next weeks) until i get a response about that.

pike

2007-05-25, 02:49

1. there is no script support in linux port yet, it's currently worked on
2. you need 24bpp display or better for XBMC window to open.

tslayer is right, we don't take any bugreports yet, and for the love of god, use pastebin or rafb.net for pastes

El Piranna

2007-05-25, 11:35

1. there is no script support in linux port yet, it's currently worked on
Oh, f*ck... all this work to nothing... :(

2. you need 24bpp display or better for XBMC window to open.
Ok, i'll try later with 24bpp/no 3d accel to see if it work (i think i would need both...)

tslayer is right, we don't take any bugreports yet, and for the love of god, use pastebin or rafb.net for pastes
Don't doubt it, i promise i'll do it the next time. Only for the ugle way to cut the logs it's a good enought reason to do it (oh, and thanks for the url, it could be useful to me later... :p )

hexland

2007-05-25, 23:01

Jezz_X

2007-05-25, 23:44

This is probably a retarded question, and I'll get flamed like hell for asking... but here goes... (apologies if it's already been asked in the preceeding 13 pages)...

I ask, only because I stumbled across this thread while looking for a nice simple frontend for a new HTPC I'm building (I've tried various others and the all suck, and I love my XBMC)...

Why are you guys doing all this work to port to linux?

Last XBMC build I downloaded had a fully functional (apart from video playback) XBMC.EXE for Windows (for skin development). Everything worked smoothly (audio, skinning, animation, mouse, etc) - albeit missing the all important music and video playback portions...

However - wouldn't it be a whole hell of a lot simpler to modify the existing win32/DX build to use mplayer than it is to re-do all this work for a linux branch?

I'm just curious what your collective thoughts were when you made the decision to go with Linux.

:)

Because the guy doing most of the programming wants too (simple as that) and dosn't as excited about doing win32
Thats how things get done when you don't get paid someone has to want to do it.
And no compatent dev has come forward with a rock solid plan/commitment to get it running in win32 proper

Also on a side note how many game consols and othe hardware do you hear get hacked to run windows XP ? my guess is none yet they all run linux in some bread

El Piranna

2007-05-26, 02:43

Well, i've tried to launch it with 24bpp (so no 3d accel and using libMesa instead of) and it runs in a very pretty fancy way: the PM3 home window reload constantly drawing the diferent sections triangles :P It's usable (it responds to keyboard action), but... well... nothing more :P Maybe with a very little stupid skin (as "big letters" one) it would be able to be used, so now you know that it runs (in a special way ;-) ) without 3d accel :D

And, well, a little sugestion... what about addapt linux port to be able to run on 16 or less colors too? Yes, i know that it's my problem to have a bastard graphic card (i found the computer droped on the street, remember? ;) ) and all new low end computers would be able to run it without problem, but maybe it would be useful that XBMC would be able to run at low end, old fashioned computers...

jmarshall

2007-05-26, 02:51

Run it in SDL only (make sdl_2d) is your only choice really.

jonb2

2007-05-26, 07:45

Looking forward to this I like XBMC better then every other media center / player on any platform. And once this has progressed several months it should be a great upgrade to the xbox.

3 things I'm interested in ( down the road ) this are:

1 being able to setup it up as the default gui forget kde or gnome I want to boot straight to XBMC.

2 A video capture feature, take like 1 single capture device from ati that is already well supported in linux and support that for recording. So down the road this would be a complete and totally better replacement to the tivo style dvr's.

3 Support to burn to DVD's as both Standard DVD videos and data DVD's using lets say the Xvid and/or maybe X.264 format.

Now before you start flaming, understand what I am talking about. The the drivers handle the hardware XBMC does not so I'm not talking about writing a dvd burning package, I'm talking about scripting the command line controls for doing it into the XBMC interface.

So for example lets says 18 months down the road you have a dual core 2Ghz system with a GB of ram a Terabyte HD, DL DVD burner an AMD(ati) capture card. You schedule it to record the Sopranos while you watch Hero's on a DVD and later on you can save (burn to dvd) the sopranos to a disk.

Complicated as hell? Yes. Could I do it ? No. But don't think XBMC has to do it either, because it does not, it just has to tell other pre-existing applications to do it in the background. Which is something it already does on the Xbox every time you play a video. So again before you start flaming think future, it wasn't that long ago some people here were raising hell if someone mentioned porting XBMC to linux.

PS. If gets ported to win32 could it be done in a way that it replaced explorer.exe as the ui rather then run on top of it ?

mace

2007-05-26, 11:41

To reply to the last question: Yes
Windows reads a registry value and launches that file as your shell. A simple change of that key will have the desired effect

El Piranna

2007-05-26, 16:06

Run it in SDL only (make sdl_2d) is your only choice really.

Interesting... now that i've erased all the files... :) Ok, i'll go to examns now and i'll try later on July (python support for then? :p ). I think this sort of things would be useful to have on a page of the wiki, isn't it? I'll do later.

P.D.: interesting the point of to use XBMC as a gui shell on Linux or windows, but if you want to launch another one thing, how do you handle the windows? You need a little window manager, as FluxBox or similar that are used with FreeVo and MythTV as frontends: you use them, but when you launch another thing the window manager pop-up.

P.D.2: how do you handle .xbe on Linux, using a XBox executable patch for Wine or using CXBE? :rofl: :rolleyes:

pike

2007-05-26, 19:25

P.D.2: how do you handle .xbe on Linux, using a XBox executable patch for Wine or using CXBE? :rofl: :rolleyes:

EH????

Question: Why would we bother with .xbe's on linux ?
Answer: we would not

El Piranna

2007-05-26, 19:35

EH????

Question: Why would we bother with .xbe's on linux ?
Answer: we would not

:D It was a joke, what it would be able to go to "bizarre proyect" section too, isn't it? Now almost all computers are more powerful that original XBox, so in some time XBMC4Linux would be able to have an XBox emulator to run XBox games, isn't it? Yes, don't bother about it now (at this moments is almost imposible to do it, and more with CXBE project frozen) but maybe in one or five years when XBMC4Linux would be stable, computers are more powerful and our little black beast start to fail and get broken it would be a very good "XBox Phoenix Project"...:rolleyes:

stickman

2007-05-26, 23:27

stickman

2007-05-26, 23:34

2 A video capture feature, take like 1 single capture device from ati that is already well supported in linux and support that for recording. So down the road this would be a complete and totally better replacement to the tivo style dvr's.

That's too much work to be done twice.

There is already a working project on linux that provides what you are requesting, and it's called mythtv.

The problem would just be to build a fully working frontend on xbmc, and it can be done thanks to some folks who are working on gmyth (http://gmyth.sourceforge.net/wiki/index.php/Main_Page), which quoting their webpage:

GMyth is a set of libraries to access MythTV backend services. To build a Mythtv frontend, or client, three different piece of software are needed: The first one is to connect to the backend and retrieve its data like EPG, schedules, records, etc. The second part is the media support for Mythtv video/audio formats (nuv files), and the third part is the application UI.

jonb2

2007-05-27, 03:04

Forget the rest I want the best XBMC+TVR

pike

2007-05-27, 14:48

here's what's working so far (that I've confirmed):
GUI
SMB
viewing of pictures; jpg and ?
music playback; mp3, wav, ogg, flac

El Piranna

2007-05-27, 14:53

here's what's working so far (that I've confirmed):
GUI
SMB
viewing of pictures; jpg and ?
music playback; mp3, wav, ogg, flac

A little (stupid) question: it works using the XBMC code or it works linking the native installed libs and daemons (smbd, libJpeg, gstreamer...)? ???

yuvalt

2007-05-27, 15:32

This is currently the result. We will minimize the libraries (for example all the audio codecs etc are not linked but SDL uses them, etc)

# ldd ./XboxMediaCenter
linux-gate.so.1 => (0xffffe000)
libSDL_image-1.2.so.0 => /usr/lib/libSDL_image-1.2.so.0 (0xb7f61000)
libSDL_gfx.so.4 => /usr/lib/libSDL_gfx.so.4 (0xb7f4e000)
libSDL_mixer-1.2.so.0 => /usr/lib/libSDL_mixer-1.2.so.0 (0xb7edf000)
libSDL-1.2.so.0 => /usr/lib/libSDL-1.2.so.0 (0xb7e50000)
liblzo.so.1 => /usr/lib/liblzo.so.1 (0xb7e31000)
libfreetype.so.6 => /usr/lib/libfreetype.so.6 (0xb7dc6000)
libcdio.so.6 => /usr/lib/libcdio.so.6 (0xb7da9000)
libsqlite3.so.0 => /usr/lib/libsqlite3.so.0 (0xb7d4b000)
libfribidi.so.0 => /usr/lib/libfribidi.so.0 (0xb7d3c000)
libGL.so.1 => /usr/lib/libGL.so.1 (0xb7cdc000)
libGLU.so.1 => /usr/lib/libGLU.so.1 (0xb7c5c000)
libsmbclient.so.0 => /usr/lib/libsmbclient.so.0 (0xb7a76000)
libdl.so.2 => /lib/tls/i686/cmov/libdl.so.2 (0xb7a72000)
libstdc++.so.6 => /usr/lib/libstdc++.so.6 (0xb7988000)
libm.so.6 => /lib/tls/i686/cmov/libm.so.6 (0xb7960000)
libgcc_s.so.1 => /lib/libgcc_s.so.1 (0xb7954000)
libc.so.6 => /lib/tls/i686/cmov/libc.so.6 (0xb7813000)
libz.so.1 => /usr/lib/libz.so.1 (0xb77ff000)
libpthread.so.0 => /lib/tls/i686/cmov/libpthread.so.0 (0xb77e8000)
libasound.so.2 => /usr/lib/libasound.so.2 (0xb7723000)
libpng12.so.0 => /usr/lib/libpng12.so.0 (0xb76ff000)
libvorbisfile.so.3 => /usr/lib/libvorbisfile.so.3 (0xb76f8000)
libvorbis.so.0 => /usr/lib/libvorbis.so.0 (0xb76d0000)
libogg.so.0 => /usr/lib/libogg.so.0 (0xb76cb000)
libsmpeg-0.4.so.0 => /usr/lib/libsmpeg-0.4.so.0 (0xb7673000)
libdirectfb-0.9.so.25 => /usr/lib/libdirectfb-0.9.so.25 (0xb761b000)
libfusion-0.9.so.25 => /usr/lib/libfusion-0.9.so.25 (0xb7615000)
libdirect-0.9.so.25 => /usr/lib/libdirect-0.9.so.25 (0xb7606000)
libX11.so.6 => /usr/lib/libX11.so.6 (0xb7515000)
libXext.so.6 => /usr/lib/libXext.so.6 (0xb7507000)
libXxf86vm.so.1 => /usr/lib/libXxf86vm.so.1 (0xb7501000)
libdrm.so.2 => /usr/lib/libdrm.so.2 (0xb74f8000)
libcrypt.so.1 => /lib/tls/i686/cmov/libcrypt.so.1 (0xb74ca000)
libresolv.so.2 => /lib/tls/i686/cmov/libresolv.so.2 (0xb74b7000)
libnsl.so.1 => /lib/tls/i686/cmov/libnsl.so.1 (0xb74a0000)
libgssapi_krb5.so.2 => /usr/lib/libgssapi_krb5.so.2 (0xb7483000)
libkrb5.so.3 => /usr/lib/libkrb5.so.3 (0xb7406000)
libk5crypto.so.3 => /usr/lib/libk5crypto.so.3 (0xb73e1000)
libcom_err.so.2 => /lib/libcom_err.so.2 (0xb73de000)
libkrb5support.so.0 => /usr/lib/libkrb5support.so.0 (0xb73da000)
libldap_r.so.2 => /usr/lib/libldap_r.so.2 (0xb73a4000)
liblber.so.2 => /usr/lib/liblber.so.2 (0xb7396000)
/lib/ld-linux.so.2 (0xb7f89000)
libXau.so.6 => /usr/lib/libXau.so.6 (0xb7393000)
libXdmcp.so.6 => /usr/lib/libXdmcp.so.6 (0xb738e000)
libsasl2.so.2 => /usr/lib/libsasl2.so.2 (0xb7377000)
libgnutls.so.13 => /usr/lib/libgnutls.so.13 (0xb7306000)
libtasn1.so.3 => /usr/lib/libtasn1.so.3 (0xb72f1000)
libgcrypt.so.11 => /usr/lib/libgcrypt.so.11 (0xb72a0000)
libgpg-error.so.0 => /usr/lib/libgpg-error.so.0 (0xb729c000)

seaweed

2007-05-27, 16:47

here's what's working so far (that I've confirmed):
GUI
SMB
viewing of pictures; jpg and ?
music playback; mp3, wav, ogg, flac

Nice work so far, any progress on video playback?

yuvalt

2007-05-27, 18:10

Vulkanr and I started porting dvdplayer. At early stages so far.

ultrabrutal

2007-05-28, 15:01

Why use xbox 360 hardware? To keep the Xbox in XBMC name. Because it matches the suggested apple hardware in color (white), it can still be bought new as opposed to hardware for the old xbox which is also usually is black.

Xbox 360 wired or wireless controller

http://www.xbox.com/en-US/hardware/x/xbox360wirelesscontroller/default.htm

Driver for linux info:
http://gentoo-wiki.com/HOWTO_Xbox_360_controller_on_Linux

Xbox 360 Universal Media Remote

http://www.xbox.com/en-US/hardware/x/xbox360universalremote/

Xbox 360 HD DVD Player

http://www.xbox.com/en-US/hardware/x/xbox360hddvdplayer/default.htm

Maybe some day via some open source software ;)

There are other hardware too which can be used down the road.

1wizzard

2007-05-28, 20:11

sure if you fix access to the video chip...

Livin

2007-05-28, 20:28

Why use xbox 360 hardware? To keep the Xbox in XBMC name. Because it matches the suggested apple hardware in color (white), it can still be bought new as opposed to hardware for the old xbox which is also usually is black.

There are other hardware too which can be used down the road.

You are missing the point of porting to Linux. The point is NOT to lock into a specific hardware platform. X360 is not 'open', PC hardware is and always will be. X360 has limited capacity, PC hardware unlimited as things improve daily with new hardware and software coming to market.

btw... "perifical"? This is not an English word according to the dictionary.

Gamester17

2007-05-28, 21:13

@Affini, I do not think you have read though this topic-thread at all (so please read all posts), you have at least missed the major point in our previous hardware dicussion here; to sum up once the XBMC port for Linux is mature enough so that end-users can take advantage of it then we are actually going to limited the hardware support to only a few (probebely only two) specific make and model or something, those somethings are however to early do decide now. Maybe Apple TV will be a such 'low-end' device, and maybe a Mac Mini, the PS3 or Xbox360 game-console will be a such 'high-end' other, we are probebely several months away from making that final. Limiting the hardware will make developing XBMC much easier. Know that XBMC had not been what it is today if we had not used the Xbox game-console as the only supported hardware so far, all users have practically the same hardware and 'operating-system' so bugs are relativly easy to replicate somewhere else in the world. Of course 'advanced users' and developers will in the future be able to compile XBMC for Linux with any drivers they like and use the XBMC Linux port on any computer they like, but Team-XBMC will only ever support and help end-users if they have problems on one of the officialy set supported hardware platforms. Understand that limiting what we support not only help developers, it will also make XBMC much more stable and optimized on those specific platforms that it can be if it has to support every piece of motherboard, graphic card, audio-card, etc.

In any case, that is not what ultrabrutal was suggesting, he was only suggesting that we add support for the Xbox360 gamepad under Linux so users could use it in XBMC Linux port on a computer as an input-device for XBMC, nothing more, ...he was not talking about the Xbox360 game-console.

pike

2007-05-28, 22:44

appletv has better 3d hardware than a mac-mini Gamester17 :p

ultrabrutal

2007-05-28, 22:49

affini, you are missing my point as Gamester so nicely points out... And lets see how good you do in a forreign language.. Peripheral was the word. I will try harder to get the words correct as it appears that misspelling makes some people missing the point. Personally I can see past spelling mistakes.

Yes I was only suggesting that Xbox hardware support is a must and makes it valid to keep using the old name XboxMediaCenter instead of having to find a new name. I was not suggesting using an Xbox 360 which I don't believe will ever be possible (I like to be proven wrong some day though)

ultrabrutal

2007-05-28, 22:50

pike, isn't there coming a new macMini soon with better hardware? Besides how important is 3D hardware for a media center?

stickman

2007-05-28, 23:32

I guess having a powerful 3D card will be great for a mediacenter, as soon as the opensource drivers (or closed source for that matter) help decoding x264.

ashlar

2007-05-29, 00:02

pike, isn't there coming a new macMini soon with better hardware? Besides how important is 3D hardware for a media center?I hope that the high end platform that the developers will choose will have no problem decoding 1080p H.264 content. XBMC can decode DVD's ISOs with no problem, the high end platform should be able to replicate the feat with HD-DVD or Bluray.

Gamester17

2007-05-29, 00:04

Yes the next Mac Mini should come out this October and be based on Intel Santa Rosa centrino-chipset and integrated-graphics which supports DirectX 10 and features Intel® Clear Video Technology (http://www.intel.com/products/chipsets/clear_video/index.htm), (that is if a next Mac Mini ever comes out, there's a rumour on Appleinsider.com speculating that Apple will cancel the 'mini' series before the next version).

We need a nice 3D GPU because the XBMC GUI is rendered using 3D acceleration (Direct3D on Xbox/Windows, and OpenGL on Linux), ...so H.264 does not (yet) have anything do with that as there is no specific open source code or Linux drivers available for accelerating the decoding of it under Linux, at least not yet. If H.264 could be accelerated on a GPU under Linux then NVIDIA has the best chip but closed source drivers, Intel has open source drivers but not a dedicated video decoding core supporting MPEG-4 in its GPU like NVIDIA, (and ATI is currently just awfull for Linux and thier chips do not have any better video decoding capabilities than Intel in any case).

t029248

2007-05-29, 00:09

If the Rumor is true, the Aopen Mac-mini "clone" could be a good alternate choice..

http://www.engadget.com/2007/05/25/aopen-intros-santa-rosa-based-minipc-duo/

ultrabrutal

2007-05-29, 01:05

gamester, someone should call up apple and tell them that they will probably sell a few million of those if it comes out ;)
I need 2 possibly even 4 in my house to be able to retire my xboxes

Livin

2007-05-29, 03:07

Gamester/ultrabrutal,
Sorry for misunderstanding the point of the post.:blush:

But I do maintain that keep the platform open is better for the community... though I do understand what limiting the hw does for dev & troubleshooting I also realize what limitations you encounter... just ask JM and the other devs what they've had to work-around to get things working and what items they'd like to do, but cannot. I'm sure the list is fairly large.:eek:

I can understand limiting the general hardware but not to 1 or 2 specific closed platforms... that is not the best way to promote XBMC or allow it to grow but allowing other devs in that may not want a PS3, X360, or ATv, etc.

With the unified driver sets that ATI & NVidia use keeping to the two largest vendors for video makes sense... and even saying something like DX10 or DX9 or OpenGL is a must. I understand perfectly.:nod:

Requiring a specific 'closed' platform... not the best option IMO. :sad:

Gamester17

2007-05-29, 12:26

I can understand limiting the general hardware but not to 1 or 2 specific closed platforms... that is not the best way to promote XBMC or allow it to grow but allowing other devs in that may not want a PS3, X360, or ATv, etc.Again you have not read the whole post or missunderstod it. Developers and end-users will not be limited to those fixed hardware platforms, developers and end-users alike will at least be able to run it on any x86-based hardware platform they like. The only thing that we will be limiting is the end-user support from Team-XBMC and these forums, if you as an end-users do not run on a supported hardware platform then we will not help you, period, simple as that. You may still run XBMC, and it may or may not run as well on a supported hardware platform but if you run into problem or discover a bug then you will not get any assistance from Team-XBMC or in this forum, nor will we be accepting any bug-reports unless the end-user can replicate the problem on a supported hardware platform. ...developers are the only ones we will assist if they run a other hardware platform, but only if the thing they want help with is not directly related to their unsupported hardware platform.

seaweed

2007-05-29, 12:54

The Aopen Santa Rosa-based miniPC Duo MP965-VDR looks realy promising, it will have both component and hdmi output, and uses ntel's 965GM chipset with intel Clear Video Technology.

Lets just hope the price wont be to scary :)

pike

2007-05-29, 12:59

I just wish Intel who made great progress with their opensource drivers, would also include Intel Clear Video / Viiv and such stuff in their OSS efforts

Gamester17

2007-05-29, 13:35

Yes, Intel and VIA and the only manufacturers who provide proper open source device drivers. VIA got 1up on Intel as they also provide code for their video hardware acceleration API via XvMC, but we/you can always all do our best to lobby Intel to do the same:
http://intellinuxgraphics.org
http://openchrome.org

Nevertheless, even if discussing hardware is fun in itself, it is really a moot point until the Linux port of XBMC get relativly up-to-date and stable for end-users to start using, ...which ETA is probebely too hard to estimate today as so many factors are involved (summer holidays coming up, more developers might join in the effort and/or existing developers might drop the project, etc.), however my personal guess it that is at least 3 to 6 months away before be can think about locked down any hardware limitations, (disclaimer: this is only my personal opinions and guess, note that I am not a programmer/developer, I could not even code to save my life)

pike

2007-05-29, 14:21

http://digg.com/linux_unix/XBMC_recruiting_developers_for_Linux_port

Gamester17

2007-05-29, 15:52

"HELP-WANTED" 'add' posted on www.xboxmediacenter.com (http://www.xboxmediacenter.com) - everyone please spead the news! :;):

jonb2

2007-05-29, 20:53

Forget mac, it makes no sense what-so-ever to port linux and yet pick mac hardware as the supported system. Yes I am aware of mac-tels that can run linux and windows, but it's a still a mac and only 3% of computer users use any type of mac.

If you want to standardize and port to linux a much better way to do it would be to look at the packages in linux that you will be using and find out what specific hardware is the easiest to code for, best supported, and largest user base. Then pick the 2 video cards 2 sound cards two chipsets etc...

In other words one system amd the other is intel, one is ati the other nvidia, one is realtek the other is soundblaster (though sound blaster might not make the cut in the easy to code for dept). This gives you much broader coverage and you have hardware that everyone else has and a straight forward upgrade path. Instead of some oddball mac that only sells 100000 units during it's entire life cycle, and is incompatible or possibly discontinued at next-gen.

The other option, but I don't this one is as good because the user base is a different animal, would be to pick a low-end dell/hp and high-end dell/hp. There are the top 2 manufactures, however most of their users are not running linux or XBMC. So while they comprise more then 30% of the entire pc market they probably only comprise about 1% of the future XBMC user base.

skruven

2007-05-29, 21:09

Forget mac, it makes no sense what-so-ever to port linux and yet pick mac hardware as the supported system. Yes I am aware of mac-tels that can run linux and windows, but it's a still a mac and only 3% of computer users use any type of mac.

I think that the aTV would be a great platform. Its the design and the features that i want. Hell it dosent even run OSX!
Thats why i think many people wants the aTV as a platform. The uniqe design and kinda good features.

The macmini is another good platform. Coz of the design and the hardware features in the slim box. If you come up with anoter cool and neat pre-build box in that size, I would take a look on it and speak again ;)

ultrabrutal

2007-05-29, 21:50

jonb2, you're missing the point. the point is not having to rely on pc hardware or dell/hp machine which usually is gone after 3 months (replaced by new series). then we would have to support new hardware and the old is obsolete. the point is to find some hardware which survives over many years - just like the Xbox does/did. xbox360, ps3, macmini and appletv are such hardware. if you can come up with something else, let us hear

jonb2

2007-05-29, 22:44

No your missing the point. The same linux that ran on a 386 back in 1995 will run on a brand new just built last week from not yet released reference design new hardware pc. You don't pick a niche product to be the only hardware you support you pick the most common.

XBMC on linux is not relying on hardware, it is relying on linux. They are not creating an operating system they are creating an application, and application that needs certain video and audio requirements. So you choose the hardware that is most popular and least problematic.

ultrabrutal

2007-05-29, 22:56

jonb2, most common meaning any pc hardware in your case. show me one motherboard and graphicscard from today that you can buy in 5 years. heck even in 6 months. xbmc will not be limited - it's opensource. you can run it on your 1995 pc for all I care.

xbmc rely on linux and linux rely on hardware - hence xbmc rely on hardware too. say you are having trouble with your xbmc pc because you are using some odd graphicscard. where will you seek help? nowhere! you have to figure it all out on yourself. most people are end users who just want it to work stable and as intendeed. you will not get this with your bamboo pc.

mace

2007-05-30, 00:29

The only way to get HW stability with major vendors like HP and Dell is to buy their corp modells. One of the reasons for their higher pricetags is the longer lifespan of those modells.

And stability is the holy grail. It doesn't matter how fast it runs, on wich HW or what features it has if it isn't rock stable. In my opinion it has to be as stable as a vcr or a dvd recorder. In other words better than most current set top boxes.

That in turn requiers a fairly small amount of HW support in order to keep testing at a reasonable level because you can't just say that one graphics adapter works. You have to say that this adapter works with this mainboard with this bios rev.

raid517

2007-05-30, 00:38

Sorry for the comment abuse. But may I just bow and scrape in both utter grattitude and worship for those who have taken this bold decision?

I have wanted this to happen ever since XBMC was first released - and have begged and pleaded for it on many, many occasions.

You guys rock - and XBMC rocks like no other Media Center app. on the planet and now (or in the near future perhaps) I can fulfil my dream of building a small dedicated XBMC machine and of finally retiring my almost antique and venerable old XBox1.

It also resolves another dilemma in my mind - which is the requirement to compile XBMC (an open source and wholly honest application) using an illegal (and in most cases stolen) SDK. (An SDK that is also almost undoubtedly becoming rapidly out of date, particularly in light of the ever increasing demands of HDTV and new media types, both current and those yet to be envisaged).

But now XBMC has a future - and it deserves a future. It does not deserve to die as the XBox1 user base continues on it's ever more rapid decline.

So I take my hat off to you guys and I say thanks. Thanks for all the years that have passed - and thanks once more for hopefully all of the years to come.

Some things make life that little more bearable and that little bit more enjoyable - and in my view XBMC is certainly up there among the best of these.

BLKMGK

2007-05-30, 03:59

I too have been awaiting news like this and just spotted the recruitment announcement, this is wonderful! I've read with interest the comments on hardware support. One of the things I've moaned for with Myth has been for those guys to pick a solid danged HW platform and support the heck out of it the way XBMC has been supported on XBOX hardware. I think that limiting support to a specific couple of platforms is a great way to go.

The aTV is an excellent CHEAP platform if it's powerful enough, the Mini or the upcoming Mini also good, the 360 would be nice but umm yeah okay maybe someday. Pick a solid patform for this, I'll buy it - simple as that. I have multiple XBOX1 (give them as gifts with XBMC on it), and two 360s - one with old firmware. If you pick the aTV I'll own one or more of those too :D The solid support is worth it for both end user and developers IMO. The idea that you somehow support 360 peripherals is also pretty awesome, if it's successful that will be terrific. I wouldn't necessarily be looking to choose a platform someone is going to have in their closet but something that works and isn't too tough on the developers. The Apple hardware, and I own none of it, looks pretty good thus far....

Good Luck guys, I for one am certainly rooting for you and when things are far enough along will happily purchase hardware and help test!:nod:

anywonder

2007-05-30, 04:28

The nice thing about Apple TV is that unlike the old Xbox (which uses customized chipset and GPU) Apple simply took a standard Mobile Intel Centrino 915PM Express chipset (http://www.intel.com/products/chipsets/915pm/index.htm) (featuring Intel ICH7 7.1 High Definition Audio (http://www.intel.com/design/chipsets/hdaudio.htm)) and a standard NVIDIA GeForce Go 7300 GPU (graphic processor chip) (http://www.nvidia.com/page/go_7300.html), making the Apple TV basically just a laptop computer with a proprietary operating-system and without a built-in keyboard/trackpad and display that normally is attached to laptop computer. So we can just use the normal proprietary binary device drivers that NVIDIA provides for Linux, (or we can choose to use the open source drivers if we clike, but I doubt those are as good as the closed source one NVIDIA provides, at least not yet, though I'm not sure what the license sais about distributing the proprietary binary device drivers from NVIDIA on Live CD).

The NVIDIA GeForce Go 7300 GPU also supports NVIDIA's PureVideo™ technology for H.264, WMV, and MPEG-2 Hardware Acceleration (http://www.nvidia.com/page/purevideo.html), NIVIDIA does unfortunatly not yet provide a Linux library or SDK for accessing that PureVideo API, (nor have I heard of NIVIDIA releasing any specifications or technical documentation for it, so as far as I know no one in the open source community have tried reverse engineering to gain access to it for adding support to it [...]

Hey Gamester, there's a project (like r300 (http://r300.sourceforge.net)) to reverse engineer nVidia's proprietary drivers for all their cards (so they don't bother ppl when they, on schedule, drop support for older cards), called Nouveau (http://nouveau.freedesktop.org/wiki). I believe they're working (http://nouveau.freedesktop.org/wiki/FAQ#head-8ed47ede857d682e8ac2f83ac1dd8a940ec04a02) on Xv support and then someone is doing Xvmc support for the Google Summer of Code (http://nouveau.freedesktop.org/wiki/SoC). Chart on functionality. (http://nouveau.freedesktop.org/wiki/RequiredFunctionality) I believe other distros, like Kororaa, have been forced to stop shipping w/ nVidia drivers due to kernel developers' copyrights and GPL on the kernel.

Intel's open source graphics are working on supporting Xvmc, apprently in the Xorg 7.3 git tree.

ATI's proprietary drivers, well, I'm sure you know the problems with them. Don't even support AIGLX and the reverse engineered drivers don't keep up fast enough because ATI's hardware is buggy.

anywonder

2007-05-30, 04:30

*wanted to add that they're not "reverse engineering" in the technical sense nVidia's drivers, but watching what they do when renouveau runs opengl on the binary drivers, and then implementing it in Nouveau.

bmfrosty

2007-05-30, 05:52

hello.

I just thought that I'd throw in my two cents. I've been using XBMC for a number of years now, and about two months ago, I gave up on ever being able to play 720p H.264 on my XBOX, so I broke down and bought a PC and have been masochistically using mediaportal since. I am so happy to hear that the XBMC team is working on a linux port.

Given all this, I've been thinking about what a future platform for XBMC could be. None of the current game systems are very appropriate for the job, and while I like Apple platforms, and they would probably be a good place to start, I think that running with VIA EPIA would be a better idea.

First and foremost, the EPIA platforms are all about being open source for all of their features, including video acceleration. This is limited to MPEG2 and MPEG4 at the moment, but it would surprise me if they didn't support H.264 and VC-1 at 1080i/p by this time next year.

Secondly, VIA tends to keep their platforms around for a while, new revisions come around all the time, but they tend to be incremental changes that should be easy to adapt to.

Thirdly, the EPIA line is based around the philosophy that low power quiet systems are better. This is important for anyone who is primarily using this as a HTPC solution.

Via already has a very nice HTPC board available in the Mini-ITX that's built for HTPC usage - the EPIA SP:

http://www.via.com.tw/en/products/mainboards/mini_itx/epia_sp/

I fully expect that within the year they'll have a version going at 2ghz that has H.264 acceleration on board.

As for the rest of the hardware, I've been thinking that while it's very expensive to get custom motherboards, there are plenty of manufacturers that could build a cheap plastic case with built-in power supply and IR Receiver and bundled remote that they could sell for a profit at $50 or $60. I know that we're nowhere near where we'd need to be in order to start talking to manufacturers. There are plenty in china, and interestingly enough I've got a co-worker that goes to china on a regular basis and deals with these guys.

Lastly, while having a hard drive and optical drive is very sexy, for most of my purposes, I don't need either. It seems to me that once this gets going, it could probably fit on a bootable 512 meg usb flash drive, OS included. This would likely be more than enough for those of us looking for a solution for network streaming.

I hope that this helps when you're making your final decisions on supported platforms, and as an aside, when you're get to that point, I may be able to round up a couple of boards as test platforms, any admin should be able to look up my email address.

Also, it might be worth your whiles to try and get in touch with the EPIA team about what you're doing. They may have some interest in it as well.

jonb2

2007-05-30, 06:43

I wonder if some of you understand the point I was making. So I want to clarify a few things, once ported to linux this will run on ten thousand hardware configurations, no ifs and or buts. You could load it on red storm, a blade server, 4 year old dell or a brand new custom built machine.

What we are talking about is the hardware configuration that will be recommended and that this site, the developers, and forum users will try to provided -free- support for. Now what many of you are saying is that you only want to provide support for a specific mac. Think about that for a minute. Why would want to avoid supporting the vast majority of your user base? More then half the people that will use this will using it on an AMD or Intel cpu with an ATI, Nvidia, or Intel onboards graphic's and realtek, or sound blaster audio that they may well already have, but you only want to support a pair of Mac's. That just doesn't make sense.

On another note virtualization was mentioned several post back and think this is an excellent tool for this sort of thing.

bmfrosty

2007-05-30, 07:01

Jonb2,

I see what you're saying, but I think you need to think about what a daunting task support can be. Of course users are going to be using the software on many different platforms, and I'm sure many developers will be experimenting with multiple different hardware configurations, and by default any bugs found there will probably end up being fixed. The fact remains that there is a need for there to be a core platform for support purposes.

I really don't think you need to worry about it too much. This type of project is likely to attract a lot of help over the next few months, most of whom will be planning to make sure it works on hardware that they personally like.

Gamester17

2007-05-30, 13:09

Yes this is a long rant but I think you should all read this:

What we are talking about is the hardware configuration that will be recommended and that this site, the developers, and forum users will try to provided -free- support for. Now what many of you are saying is that you only want to provide support for a specific mac. Think about that for a minute. Why would want to avoid supporting the vast majority of your user base? More then half the people that will use this will using it on an AMD or Intel cpu with an ATI, Nvidia, or Intel onboards graphic's and realtek, or sound blaster audio that they may well already have, but you only want to support a pair of Mac's. That just doesn't make sense.@jonb2, I too hear what YOU are saying but it seems to ME that YOU are only thinking about this from YOUR point-of-view and thus are really missing OUR point when WE are thinking about this from the average end-user (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/End-user) (which includs mom, dad, girlfriend/wife and other non-technocrats (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technocracy_(bureaucratic)#Criticism_of_Technocrac y)); I think that once XBMC for Linux is mature enough then we will not be releasing nor supporting it as a stand-alone application which is be run on any Linux distribution you like, (as a free hobby project we simply do not have the support structure nor time to develop for and support all hardware and Linux distros there us, which is why we will need to limit what we will officially support). We will only be releasing XBMC for Linux as a bundled package together with the supported operating-system as a Live CD type distribution that you will simply be able to load onto a USB-key or CompactFlash module and boot directly on the officially supported hardware platforms without having to worrying about hardware compatibility issues or manual configurations. This way we will then be able to have control over what device-drivers, modules, etc. versions are installed by default and that is what we will develop for and support.

I see what you're saying, but I think you need to think about what a daunting task support can be. Of course users are going to be using the software on many different platforms, and I'm sure many developers will be experimenting with multiple different hardware configurations, and by default any bugs found there will probably end up being fixed. The fact remains that there is a need for there to be a core platform for support purposes.
Exactly. Remember that since XBMc is open source, both developers and 'nerdy' end-users will of course still be able to extract or compile that XBMC for Linux application themselves and (try to) run on any Linux distributions they want, or add any device-drivers and modules they like to the Live CD distro and use on any hardware they like (and probably without any major), but they should then understand that Team-XBMC (and this official XBMC Community Forum) will then not help them if they run into problems. However if they discover what they think can be a bug they can get a friend to try to see if they can replicate the issue on one of the hardware platforms that is officially supported by Team-XBMC and get a debug-log from there to submit. This is also why game-consoles (and embedded devices like Apple TV) are as perfect as it gets for reference platforms, the have long life cycles (+5 years), and they are relatively cheap to buy and set-up for the end-users (compared to buying and building a regular computer from several different hardware pieces), since every end-user runs the same hardware which greatly simplifies development, troubleshooting and debugging. Mace is right, simplicity and stability is the holy-grail for 'normal' end-users, (not everyone is a 1337 geek you know, and those who are is a minority, not a majority).

All this goes together with Team-XBMC's internal moto

User-friendliness is next to godlyness
One of Team-XBMC major ongoing goal have always been to make XBMC and its user interface (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/user_interface) even more intuitive (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/intuitive) and user-friendly (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/user-friendliness) for its end-users (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/End-user), based on the KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) philosophy. We think that usability (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usability) is very important for media players like XBMC. Many user interface decisions are being made by developers who often have little experience in user interface design, in order to improve this, we try to listen to XBMC's end-users fro how XBMC is actually being used and how we can improve the user experience. We also aim to do regular overhauls, improving existing features/functions, and scrapping outdated code and features/functions (as "to much stuff" can also be a bad thing).

XBMC as a whole must...
* Be easy to install, set up, and maintain, (so that the end-users do not get fed up with it and quit).
* Have an user interface simple and intuitive enough so that less geek-savvy people are not intimidated by it.
* Make common usage easy, easy the 'Human–Computer Interaction (HCI) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human-computer_interaction)', from the viewpoint of an ordinary user.
* Be able to play audio and video files that have been compressed using divx, xvid, etc. directly out-of-the-box
* Be able to and organize audio and video files in an easy and user-friendly way.
* Use standards and be consistant, (the music section can for example not use complly different controls from the video section)
* Preform actions in the GUI with as few 'clicks' as possible
* Require little to none non-GUI configuration (and all such non-GUI config should be via AdvancedSettings.xml (http://www.xboxmediacenter.com/wiki/index.php?title=AdvancedSettings.xml&xbmc_wiki_session=25b4635a2b0ce0c9bc2891154d8e0dc3 ))
* There is still a little work to be done here, for example RSS-feeds settings need to moved to the GUI
* Look nice.

Again, the decisions are all still many months away before anything like this can be set in stone.
On another note virtualization was mentioned several post back and think this is an excellent tool for this sort of thing.Yes that is a possible future option, however no virtualization solution does yet provide 3D hardware acceleration (OpenGL) which is a minimum requirement we have, though I sure that within a year or two there will be a solution for that as well. Both OpenLina (http://www.openlina.com) and the Linux VM kernel (http://www.csn.ul.ie/~mel/projects/vm/) looks have potential as future sandbox enviroments but none are quite there yet (at least not when it comes to 3D and GPU access).

jonb2

2007-05-30, 18:51

I totally agree with the following.

User-friendliness is next to godlyness
One of Team-XBMC major ongoing goal have always been to make XBMC and its user interface (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/user_interface) even more intuitive (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/intuitive) and user-friendly (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/user-friendliness) for its end-users (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/End-user), based on the KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) philosophy. We think that usability (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usability) is very important for media players like XBMC. Many user interface decisions are being made by developers who often have little experience in user interface design, in order to improve this, we try to listen to XBMC's end-users fro how XBMC is actually being used and how we can improve the user experience. We also aim to do regular overhauls, improving existing features/functions, and scrapping outdated code and features/functions (as "to much stuff" can also be a bad thing).

XBMC as a whole must...
* Be easy to install, set up, and maintain, (so that the end-users do not get fed up with it and quit).
* Have an user interface simple and intuitive enough so that less geek-savvy people are not intimidated by it.
* Make common usage easy, easy the 'Human–Computer Interaction (HCI) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human-computer_interaction)', from the viewpoint of an ordinary user.
* Be able to play audio and video files that have been compressed using divx, xvid, etc. directly out-of-the-box
* Be able to and organize audio and video files in an easy and user-friendly way.
* Use standards and be consistant, (the music section can for example not use complly different controls from the video section)
* Preform actions in the GUI with as few 'clicks' as possible
* Require little to none non-GUI configuration (and all such non-GUI config should be via AdvancedSettings.xml (http://xbmc.org/forum/../wiki/index.php?title=AdvancedSettings.xml&xbmc_wiki_session=25b4635a2b0ce0c9bc2891154d8e0dc3 ))
* There is still a little work to be done here, for example RSS-feeds settings need to moved to the GUI
* Look nice. However where we differ is: I think it should be designed do all the above on the most common hardware. You think it should be designed to do it on niche hardware, because it's easier to support 1 unchanging system. I'm not thinking about what I want (in this case, I've previously stated what I want which is unrelated to this) I'm thinking about the best way to support the largest user base with the least trouble.

To me it sounds more like you are trying to create an XBMC Linux Distro rather then port the application to linux, which is not a bad a idea at all, but even that being the case I still don't think you want to limit the support to a single niche system.

As to what I want and imagine in the future I imagine a quadcore system in a large mid-tower case with 1-2GB of ram and HD-Blue-Ray combo drive and 4 terabytes of storage, 2 Digital Tv-tuners, HDMI input and output along with numerous other input-output connections, and of course with an RF-remote and wireless keyboard+mouse. All of which will be the main media server for the gigabit network which allows all the other disk-less networked systems and standard computers can watch anything they want in any room.

Now I don't think that will happen any time soon, but by porting it to linux it is certainly possible.

At any rate I'd be interested to hear what the developers think, because it wasn't that long ago the site ops were adamantly against even talking about porting to linux and yet here we are.

bmfrosty

2007-05-30, 19:40

To me it sounds more like you are trying to create an XBMC Linux Distro rather then port the application to linux, which is not a bad a idea at all, but even that being the case I still don't think you want to limit the support to a single niche system.

A-ha! I think I see where you're coming from, and what you're missing. The developers are doing both. They're porting to Linux and the common APIs available therein. By doing this, the system will work on all linux compatible hardware, at least under X86.

The problem with this, and one of the problems with linux in general, is that linux is not very user-friendly when it comes to program distribution. It's not really set up for binary distribution, and binary packages tend to break when you switch between any of the almost infinite linux distributions. That said, handing end users a tarball full of source code and expecting them to compile it themselves, isn't friendly either.

The solution? The developers develop a minimal linux install in parallel with the port. This gives end users a quick and easy way to set things up, with a standard set of hardware. Really this is a great thing. This should work really well with something like appletv too, since it should be a matter of burning(for the lack of a better term) a usb-stick, plugging it in, and booting up while holding a couple of buttons on the remote. Simple as that. If they go with supporting a specific motherboard (or line of motherboards), it still stays pretty easy for those who are familiar enough with PC hardware to mount a motherboard in a case, past that it's the same thing.

Now the other side of the argument.

There should be no worries. Even though the dev team will not be supporting other hardware configs, others will. See mythtv for examples. There are two distributions out there that I know of off the top of my head - knoppmyth and mythdora - that do this. Mythdora is fairly new, but knoppmyth has been out there for years. There is no need to worry about it working on generalized hardware.

Now a question for the developers:

From everything that I've read, it appears that the Linux port of XBMC will still be calling mplayer as a dll. Is this even necessary? Shouldn't it be possible to run a standard compile of mplayer, and just act as an interface shell? I'd think that this would be very beneficial as every time mplayer gets an update, XBMC-Linux would get the update almost for free without the need for doing a whole bunch of porting work.

szsori

2007-05-30, 21:13

From everything that I've read, it appears that the Linux port of XBMC will still be calling mplayer as a dll. Is this even necessary? Shouldn't it be possible to run a standard compile of mplayer, and just act as an interface shell? I'd think that this would be very beneficial as every time mplayer gets an update, XBMC-Linux would get the update almost for free without the need for doing a whole bunch of porting work.
If mplayer is called directly, I propose an additional design change when it's converted.

Meedio had a plugin called PlayMee that allowed users to define which program they wanted to launch specific media types. The rules included file extension, library section (movies, tv, games), and a few other things. This meant that you could use mplayer to automatically launch all of your media files, but then launch any files with a .z64 extension in a N64 emulator. .rom files having a "system" tag of "Nintendo" were launched with the Nintendo emulator. Etc.

The benefit of incorporating a system like this is that it's extremely easy to incorporate non-media files (like emulator roms) into the interface. The rules could easily be set up in the AdvancedSettings.xml, just like TV scraper regex's, which means it would be even easier for end users.

An alternate method would be to just add a "LaunchPrograms" section to the AdvancedSettings.xml. A possible example:
<LaunchPrograms>
<LaunchProgram>
<LibrarySection>Nintendo</LibrarySection>
<CommandLine>/usr/bin/nintendoemu -param1 -param2 </CommandLine>
<CommandLineSuffix>-param3</CommandLineSuffix>
</LaunchProgram>
</LaunchPrograms>
When a file is selected in the "Nintendo" library section, it would run:
/usr/bin/nintendoemu -param1 -param2 <filepath> -param3

Obviously there was no need for something like this on the Xbox, but it opens up a LOT of customization options within linux. Scripts can easily be incorporated by adding:
<LibrarySection>Scripts</LibrarySection>
<CommandLine>/usr/bin/python </CommandLine>
</LaunchProgram>
I know it would be a decent amount of work to add this in, but I think it would be an ideal way of launching media.

ashlar

2007-05-30, 21:43

bmfrosty has already said pretty much what i wanted to say about the specific hardware platforms that will be supported.

jonb2, I just wanted to add that, since this remains a totally free project, we should be really, really grateful that the developers decided to port to Linux and, for the time being, leave it at that.

I was, I believe, among the most vocal supporters of a port to a PC based solution. Now it's time to support the developers because, once more, they have given their users what they asked for. Nitpicking would just result, IMHO, in pissing people off. And now I really don't want that to happen! :)

ashlar

2007-05-30, 21:49

Supposing that one would like to buy an HTPC now, to later install Linux XBMC (and in the meantime be able to enjoy HD content), is nVidia the best way to go as far as graphic cards go? I mean, is the most decently supported brand of GPUs under Linux, right?

Gamester17

2007-05-30, 23:42

A-ha! I think I see where you're coming from, and what you're missing. The developers are doing both. They're porting to Linux and the common APIs available therein. By doing this, the system will work on all linux compatible hardware, at least under X86.

The problem with this, and one of the problems with linux in general, is that linux is not very user-friendly when it comes to program distribution. It's not really set up for binary distribution, and binary packages tend to break when you switch between any of the almost infinite linux distributions. That said, handing end users a tarball full of source code and expecting them to compile it themselves, isn't friendly either.

The solution? The developers develop a minimal linux install in parallel with the port. This gives end users a quick and easy way to set things up, with a standard set of hardware. Really this is a great thing. This should work really well with something like appletv too, since it should be a matter of burning(for the lack of a better term) a usb-stick, plugging it in, and booting up while holding a couple of buttons on the remote. Simple as that. If they go with supporting a specific motherboard (or line of motherboards), it still stays pretty easy for those who are familiar enough with PC hardware to mount a motherboard in a case, past that it's the same thing.That is it exacly, spot on :grin:

spiff

2007-05-30, 23:47

go for intel

intel is the only company opening their hw - and hence they deserve all our support

_max_

2007-05-31, 00:17

No your missing the point. The same linux that ran on a 386 back in 1995 will run on a brand new just built last week from not yet released reference design new hardware pc..

Im sorry but you dont have a clue, do you know how many times HP 'updates' their motherboards without even changing the naming of the pc? suddenly a certain model of SFF from HP contained s-ata chipsets, making our ghost program go nuts. We have about 300 of these at work, i have sofar found 12 different models with different errors and bugs with the SAME linux ghost. Everything from GPU to HDD chip being fubar. Dell upgrades their products each 9-12 months (3 month overlaps so that companies can get used to new on). You wanna make sure that each dev has its own version of the new Dell AND Hp machine so that they can troubleshoot each new case of "this chipset was 0.99$ cheeper, lets swap to that one in the middle of the production...

bmfrosty

2007-05-31, 01:33

go for intel

intel is the only company opening their hw - and hence they deserve all our support

Was there a press release or something?

Also - news on the apple front:

http://www.macrumors.com/2007/05/30/apple-introduces-160gb-apple-tv-for-399/

Apple seems to be releasing a 160gb AppleTV. I wonder if they'll make any other hardware changes.

spiff

2007-05-31, 01:43

http://intellinuxgraphics.org/

jonb2

2007-05-31, 04:34

jonb2[/B] http://xbmc.org/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://xbmc.org/forum/showthread.php?p=137020#post137020)
No your missing the point. The same linux that ran on a 386 back in 1995 will run on a brand new just built last week from not yet released reference design new hardware pc..

Im sorry but you dont have a clue, do you know how many times HP 'updates' their motherboards without even changing the naming of the pc? suddenly a certain model of SFF from HP contained s-ata chipsets, making our ghost program go nuts. We have about 300 of these at work, i have sofar found 12 different models with different errors and bugs with the SAME linux ghost. Everything from GPU to HDD chip being fubar. Dell upgrades their products each 9-12 months (3 month overlaps so that companies can get used to new on). You wanna make sure that each dev has its own version of the new Dell AND Hp machine so that they can troubleshoot each new case of "this chipset was 0.99$ cheeper, lets swap to that one in the middle of the production...

I don't have a clue ? Your response doesn't even have anything to do with my statement that you quoted. The fact that you didn't know that a drive image from one machine won't automatically transfer to a different machine and attempting it will create errors in windows 95-vista and linux 386-686. Has nothing to do with whether or not a 386 distro of linux will run on 100000 different configurations using hardware spanning a decade and clearly speaks to your in-ability to grasp the subject at hand.

RTFM

bmfrosty

2007-05-31, 04:47

I don't have a clue ? Your response doesn't even have anything to do with my statement that you quoted. The fact that you didn't know that a drive image from one machine won't automatically transfer to a different machine and attempting it will create errors in windows 95-vista and linux 386-686. Has nothing to do with whether or not a 386 distro of linux will run on 100000 different configurations using hardware spanning a decade and clearly speaks to your in-ability to grasp the subject at hand.

RTFM

Wow. I didn't think this thread would attract trolls. It's either that or you're angry about not understanding Linux very well. It's not like you get hardware accelerated video stuff with the standard Vesa drivers.

raid517

2007-05-31, 05:34

Apple TV will die. It is already a fairly big flop. In another year it will be all but forgotten. (I am not anti-Apple - but I think the writing is already on the wall).

I also think it would be a mistake to pin your hopes on yet another proprietary platform at this time.

Fine if you wish to use a reference set of hardware - a small form factor PC that most ordinary people can buy, or assemble on their own and which has more than enough processing power to handle HDTV etc would be fine.

But I for one (as another long term XBMC user) really would not like the idea of being forced to buy into yet another proprietary platform. I bought the 4 Xbox1's I have owned for XBMC only. I don't think I ever played a single game on any of them. But the idea of Linux is that it isn't tied to one big specific company, or corporate entitity. Should it become a requirement to buy into another proprietary platform, such as Apple TV, or worse still Sony PlayStation (with a $600+ price tag) I do feel that this would be self defeating. I like/liked the idea of XBMC on Linux specifically because it enabled XBMC to move away from a dependence on proprietary platforms. I don't think Sony or Apple need my support - and I would like the option not to be made to give them it (and to not have a choice) simply in order to continue using XBMC.

I do hope that hosting an open source project like this on an open platform that is not at the mercy of the market, is ultimately something that the developers feel is in the best interests of the project too.

ultrabrutal

2007-05-31, 10:28

w84no1

2007-05-31, 15:00

I could care less what hardware it runs on now. I am excited that it is being ported.

I would like thank all of the devs that are hard at work getting this ported to Linux!!!!!!!

Once it is stable enough for some beta testers, then I will give it a try. I will try to run it on whatever hardware I have at the time. There is no need to sweat about the hardware until it is ported. Good job guys!

jonb2

2007-05-31, 15:31

raid, consider how many appletv's there would be sold for xbmc. I do not know how many they need to sell in order to consider it a success. xbmc is so good that I easily see it sell multiple millions.
bringing xbmc away from the xbox will attract even more users than there are currently. the software is free. no offering from any company comes close. it's unique and easily justify the extra price tag for a macmini or a appletv imo. I totally agree with the devs that supporting a few platforms is a requirement - this does not mean it does not run on any platform you like. it just mean you can only get support, from devs, on these platforms. the rest you are on your own. read what gamester has written in this thread!

1st: I really doubt the apple tv will sell a million little lone 4 or more million and I doubt 10000 people will run out and buy one so they can run XBMC. They will either get it working on what they already have, put in on a new system the next time they get one, or just give up do to lack of support.

2nd: So far not a single dev has said anything about supporting apple anything or limiting support. So far the only thing I've seen a dev mention as likely supported hardware is intel graphic's.

ultrabrutal

2007-05-31, 15:47

jonb, gamester speaks for the devs here. correct no decisions have been made. it's much too early, but we can speak about possible supported platforms until then can't we? personally I would buy 2 possibly 4 and I know of pleanty people who would the same. 10000 people is nothing worldwide

apple believes they will sell one million before christmas. I think XBMC could boost sales. I for one have nothing I want to put in the living room and building a HTPC is a much more expensive alternative. ok if you have an old computer be my guest but most people do not want a "normal" computer in their living room
(http://applerecon.com/2007/01/24/apple-tv-blowing-away-expectations/)

ashlar

2007-05-31, 16:02

Ultrabrutal, while the AppleTV concept is fascinating, I really believe that the hardware would struggle to reach even the low spec level proposed by the developers. 720p h.264 would be severely limited in bitrate, according to specs. *And* the hardware acceleration is not accessible under Linux, if I understand correctly.

seaweed

2007-05-31, 16:02

So did the xbmc linux project gain any new developers because of the new publicty? (Front page of xbox-scene.com etc) Would be nice if the project could draft some good developers to speed up the process and help out.

dailydisco

2007-05-31, 16:32

Based on the news that XBMC is being ported to Linux, I rekindled that flame a few weeks ago and started messing around with various distributions. I tried this on a Dell 610 laptop as well as a Gateway P4 3.0 Ghz desktop. I played with Knoppix (laptop/desktop), Ubuntu 7.04 (laptop/desktop), PCLinuxOS 2007 (laptop/desktop), and OpenSuse LiveDVD (desktop only).

As a relatively computer savvy individual (took some C back in college and some VB afterward for fun, but don't remember much) who has never used Linux, my statistically not-so-significant findings lead me to the conclusion that whichever "plug-n-play" linux distro the developers choose will be helped greatly by some specifications set by them. I can see where the core system (graphics, sound, video capture if that gets included, etc) will need to be tight. Some of the other details do not necessarily need to be set in stone so long as the distro is thought out well. I'll use wi-fi as an example. I was able to get online using the laptop... Ubuntu and PCLinuxOS distros could all see and use the intel wireless chipset without any intervention (didn't try OpenSUSE on the laptop). The desktop was another story.

My biggest issue from my personal experience was that the three distros with the biggest hits on www.distrowatch.com (Ubunto, OpenSuse, PCLinuxOS) were not all thought out real well for the end-user. For this reason, PCLinuxOS is now installed on my system. It is the only distro that came with ndiswrapper on the LiveCD so that I could at least connect to the net with my trendnet PCI wireless card using the windows drivers. For whatever reason, Ubuntu left that as a package to install... which is odd since you need to be connected to the net to install it... paradoxical! While this is a little off-topic, it does illustrate the need to make the setup somewhat noob-proof if we would like to really see this takeoff. One word of advice from a Linux noob... please make sure the liveCD/USB includes the tools needed to give the stable platform a chance to survive in the wild (where someone might have everything except wireless card X)! This should be easy since you don't need to include all the other software (OpenOffice, etc) to attract people to the distro. This tends to lean towards some hardware specs... at least for a core solution from this team.

I also agree with one of the other posters... if this system takes off in Linux on a standard setup as well as a couple out-of-the-box solutions (e.g., AppleTV), then this will spawn support sites for those who wish to retool it to work on other Linux distros. Isn't this what makes open source so great? I think the whole point is that the developers of the core XBMC are willing to support the core setup(s) which may change or expand over time, right? This should provide a good starting point for ancillary XBMC-extreme support sites.

One thing to remember, OpenSUSE is owned by Novell, yet I was never able to get online with it...no ndiswrapper setup in the install process (PCLinuxOS was alone in that regard) and the tools they did provide did not see the card... and they have a lot of developers who actually get paid!

:D

raid517

2007-05-31, 16:45

@ultrabrutal, as I said I have no objection to the developers coming up with some kind of baseline reference platform.

But I do have a problem with it being tied to yet another proprietary product - such as Apple TV, Mac Mini, PS3 or whatever.

The problem with these I have is that this then takes the element of choice (as a consumer) away from me. I am no longer able to make a choice if I want to spend $400 to $700 or more just to use XBMC (with HDTV support etc). I am genuinely concerned that I may be told that in order to continue to use XBMC I will have to support these companies whether I want to or not.

Nonetheless the advantage of building for a small specific reference platform from off the shelf PC parts are indeed significant.

First if you build a reference platform from standard PC parts, the chances are (despite the developers reservations about offering support for these) that this will also work on 95% of all other recent PC's out there too.

I can completely see where the developers are coming from in this regard, with them wanting perhaps one low end reference platform, maybe a mid range reference platform and perhaps a high end reference platform also. In this sense they want to be like Apple - and work within a known set of given parameters.

But tying XBMC to yet another proprietary platform and pinning XBMC future on this platform's success (or lack thereof) whatever this platform may be, seems to me to be extremely counter productive.

AppleTV, the PS3, Xbox 360 etc may come and go - but the PC is here to stay and is nowhere near so subject to the whims of the market as many of these products may be.

Also as much as I might like XBMC - I am not certain I would want to go out and spend $100's of dollars/pounds or whatever just to use it.

I got my XBoxs' only when the market made this cheap enough to do (I think I got my first Xbox for £80) so if I could simply do the extra work (which if XBMC was built on a standard PC reference platform should be quite trivial) to get XBMC working on one of my spare PC's and not have to spend any money at all in order to get it up and running, I would prefer this much more than any other option.

Also I do think you are being very idealistic and unrealistic. There is no way that enough people are going to rush out and buy an AppleTV or a Mac Mini (which also has an uncertain future) just to install XBMC on it. First again as I said, because of the expense - but also because there just aren't enough people who know about XBMC to make this viable. After all, one of the main attractions for installing XBMC on any PC like platform was that it would be both cheap and upgradable. Not closed or expensive like many proprietary platforms are already. In addition to this why limit your user base in this way, by tying it to a platform that not everyone will be able to have access to? Far more people have access to PC's than to any number of these proprietary platforms combined.

Anyway as I said, I do think a small reference platform (or number of platforms) is a fair enough idea (although other developers seem to worry much less about this). But I really do think tying XBMC to some form of closed/proprietary platform might prove a very big mistake and will prevent many people who would like to use XBMC from doing so, due to both the ethical and financial considerations involved.

GJ

pike

2007-05-31, 16:46

jonb2

2007-05-31, 18:03

Ultrabrutal, I don't think anyone but the devs speak for the devs, and they do a fine job of speaking for themselves.

KillerDr3w

2007-05-31, 19:14

Hi Pike,

Nice news on the Linux port of XBMC. I am a long time user of XBMC, but haven't really been in the forums or on IRC.

The talk of a XBMC distro rang a few alarm bells

I am sure you know this, but it hasn't specifically been mentioned... building your own distro is as big a project as XBMC is. It might be wise to choose an existing distro, (Ubuntu OR Debian OR OpenSuSE etc) that has all the configuration tools and scripts in already, and then strip it down of apps and add the extra bits needed specifically for XBMC. Then you can concentrate on XBMC rather than hardware detection and configuration, scritps etc.

It would still be "the XBMC Distro" but other than the stripping and customization, you wouldn't have actually done much of the distro development.

Another quick question - does the lack of accelerated 3D on the PS3's hypervisor rule it out as a target platform. I only ask as its a nice looking system with a remote thats already under my TV and can already run Linux if needed.

Thanks - and good luck!

pike

2007-05-31, 19:46

Hi Pike,

Nice news on the Linux port of XBMC. I am a long time user of XBMC, but haven't really been in the forums or on IRC.

The talk of a XBMC distro rang a few alarm bells

I am sure you know this, but it hasn't specifically been mentioned... building your own distro is as big a project as XBMC is. It might be wise to choose an existing distro, (Ubuntu OR Debian OR OpenSuSE etc) that has all the configuration tools and scripts in already, and then strip it down of apps and add the extra bits needed specifically for XBMC. Then you can concentrate on XBMC rather than hardware detection and configuration, scritps etc.

We will either mod an existing distro or make our own.
The distro will be customized for the hardware in question to eliminate the need for hwprobe and such (to speed up the booting).
With that said, it's way too early to decide stuff like this today!

Another quick question - does the lack of accelerated 3D on the PS3's hypervisor rule it out as a target platform. I only ask as its a nice looking system with a remote thats already under my TV and can already run Linux if needed.

Like it looks today, yes. Right now we're focused on porting the existing XBMC platform to x86 Linux (regular pc's)

ultrabrutal

2007-05-31, 19:58

dailydisco

2007-05-31, 20:41

@dailydisco

aren't you contradicting yourself a bit here ?

if we say we will have target platform Y, then naturally we will have a customized distribution for platform Y

keyword: will, as in eventually

Pike,

yeah, probably am contradicting myself a little... I guess I was just trying to get at the point of if you try to make a distro that is so utterly locked down (excluding a distro for a boxed platform such as AppleTV) it may be difficult expect that every last piece of hardware will be available. I assume you will lock down graphics, sound, motherboard, etc... there may be a few things which are necessary (ethernet or wireless card) but don't have to be locked down if you just look at how some good linux distros handle things like that (I use PCLinuxOS 2007 as my example since it was the only one designed in a way hat allowed me to get online without having to find another computer that could get online to download some packages). It is indeed way too early to think about that I guess... by the time this goes out as a distribution, the popular distros will be a release or two or three advanced as well.

As for the AppleTV idea, if it goes that route and they can get HD working and the hack is ready for the general public (and Apple doesn't close an exploit holes) I will most likely buy one.

If they don't, and the hardware setup is "in-stone" down to the type of keyboard we can use... what the heck... I'll put one together.

BTW, life if full of contradictions...:o

bmfrosty

2007-05-31, 22:18

Given all the talk about hardware support, I was thinking that it might be worth talking to these guys:

Mythdora Homepage (http://g-ding.tv/)

When the time gets a little bit closer. They've built a modified Fedora Linux installation that's core feature is that it supports what's needed for MythTV, and not much else. I'd think that modifying that to support XBMC-Linux wouldn't be a huge feat of acrobatics, and given their pre-existing propensity for HTPC distribution, they may not only be capable, but willing as well.

Gamester17

2007-05-31, 23:57

I am sure you know this, but it hasn't specifically been mentioned... building your own distro is as big a project as XBMC is. It might be wise to choose an existing distro, (Ubuntu OR Debian OR OpenSuSE etc) that has all the configuration tools and scripts in already, and then strip it down of apps and add the extra bits needed specifically for XBMC. Then you can concentrate on XBMC rather than hardware detection and configuration, scritps etc.

It would still be "the XBMC Distro" but other than the stripping and customization, you wouldn't have actually done much of the distro development.It is way to early to decide anything now, but I personally fully agree with you on this. There is no point in re-inventing the wheel or doing more work than is nessesary to get the job done, so to me the idea of building our own distro from scratch (so to speak) is out of the question. I too think the best thing is to take an existing distro and 'simply' strip away the 'stuff' that we do not need/want and add any extra 'stuff' we do need/want to optimize that forked distro for XBMC and our reference hardware platforms.

I have no clue which existing Linux distro available today that would best suit all of our needs, and even less of an clue which future Linux distro will be best for our needs in the future when XBMC Linux port is mature enough to be distributed as its own 'Live CD' type Linux distro. However I did read that "Ubuntu Mobile and Embedded Edition (https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-announce/2007-May/000289.html)" is comming this October and that might we worth taking a closer look at then as the description of what it will be match up well with our own goals for XBMC Linux port. Other Linux Distros that is probably also worth a second look is; KnoppMyth (http://www.knoppmyth.net) (Knoppix with MythTV), Mythdora (http://g-ding.tv) (Fedora with MythTV), GeexBox (http://www.geexbox.org) (bootable mplayer with Freevo), and LinuxMCE (http://www.linuxmce.com) (their own front'end with multiple back-end players). At least to borrow ideas about which modules/libraries/deamon/script packages to include and which ones to not include.

Another quick question - does the lack of accelerated 3D on the PS3's hypervisor rule it out as a target platform. I only ask as its a nice looking system with a remote thats already under my TV and can already run Linux if needed.That, and the fact that LibSDL (http://www.libsdl.org) has not yet been ported nor optimized for the Cell Processor, (Cell Processor support is also lacking in FFmpeg (http://ffmpeg.mplayerhq.hu) and MPlayer (http://www.mplayerhq.hu), and those are the audio/video codec suit and player core that XBMC uses).

bla, bla, bla....@jonb2, pike and I are the two Project Managers of The XBMC Project. Yes it is true that we do not always speak for all the developers, and we have/will never claim that we to do, however as active contributers to the project we do enjoy the ears of the projects developers which in most cases weighs more than someone that do not contribute at all. As with all open source hobby projects (which XBMC is) everyone working on the project do so for free, thus we can not bark orders at anyone. Eveyone have their own personal agenda for working on XBMC, some do it for fun, others for the challenge or experince, and some (if not most) do it because XBMC is a software that they themself use on a regular basis, (this is the reason why some features in XBMC no longer have an maintaner at all and are completly ignored, and why other existing and new features gain all the attention of some developers). Basicly if you want something done for sure in an open source software project then you have to do it yourself, so those who do nothing to contribute at all will most of the times just be ignored.

In any case, the fact remains that at least Pike and I agree that (at this time) restricting the official support to a couple of specified reference hardware platforms will be the right thing to do for The XBMC Project (once the XBMC Linux is mature enough). This might very well have changed in six-months. Nevertheless, users wanting to use XBMC Linux port on other hardware will have nothing to fear, we are sure that third-party websites and communities will be created that build and support their own Linux Distros with XBMC with their preferences, that is not a bad thing.

PS! What it is that make you jonb2 think that you have all the answers and eveyone should do what you say? If you have not noticed it you do not tend to use frases like "I think that...", "I feel this.." or "My personal opinion is...". Instead you speak as eveything you say is fact and should be blindly obeyed, and I think that is a very annoying trade in a person. Other people have been hanging around in these forums for years and they all managed to use common sense and good netiquette (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netiquette), but you we do not know so why should we respect your options, for all we know you could be a 12-year old shut-in with no social-interaction or real-world experience, who believes trolling (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_%28internet%29) and flaming is a cleaver way to get you heared online. I say that all you done so far is spread FUD (Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear%2C_uncertainty_and_doubt).

By the way, what I am going here is called constructive criticism, and though my guess is that you will probably answer me in an immature way and do some more trolling, trying to spread more FUD, but how about if you instead try to take in what others and myself said, then continue this discussion in a mature way, respecting other peoples opinions and try to contribute to the XBMC project in a possitive and groove way? ...if not then this is probably the last time someone replies to you in this forum.

pike

2007-06-01, 00:10

On a happier note; Say Welcome to new member 'd4rk' who will help us with OpenGL coding on linuxport

Welcome d4rk!

nate12o6

2007-06-01, 00:18

Welcome d4rk!

raid517

2007-06-01, 01:45

raid, you keep talking about tying? no one is tying anything! we are talking about a common platform for support/development. there is nothing tied that will make it not work on any pc except incompatibilities in hardware and drivers on those pc's. appletv and macmini are just pc's. any incompatibility problems will of course also be fixed by users and/or team members one way or the other - so fear not!

The point I made wasn't so much about 'tying' as 'limiting'. It would be a shame to limit XBMC to a proprietary platform in this way. Firstly because you risk limiting your user base and second because not everyone will enjoy the idea of needing to go out and buy a property platform which they may or may not be able to afford simply to obtain a reasonable level of support.

I am however all for the developers sticking to a bunch of pretty standard off the shelf PC parts if this is what they wish to do (although I hope that as time passes, like Apple they will allow for some level of upgradeability and they will allow for these specifications to be improved upon as new developments in PC technology emerge. Even Apple after all do not build on entirely static platforms - despite having a very definite and defined set of supported hardware components).

I also think that if you build to a certain set of PC specific reference designs, the issue of whether XBMC will work on more generic platforms becomes much more trivial. If you can build XBMC and make it run on a few modern reference PC platforms the chances are that it will probably work pretty flawlessly on 95% of all other modern PC's too - so you instantly massively increase your potential user base. You also go a good deal of the way towards keeping costs for your users down.

Anyway the issue of support would be made a great deal simpler by building on top of an already existing distro - as many of these distributions already have a huge array of support for an equally vast array of hardware. The key would probably be to offer support for XBMC only and not for any distro/OS specific issues. That way users can get support for the distro in question from the normal support sources for that distro (of which there are many) and the XBMC developers can still continue to concentrate on XBMC development only. This is the way most other Linux developers work - and many of them appear to find this less of an issue than some of the XBMC developers appear to imagine.

jonb2

2007-06-01, 02:14

@jonb2, pike and I are the two Project Managers of The XBMC Project. Yes it is true that we do not always speak for all the developers, and we have/will never claim that we to do, however as active contributers to the project we do enjoy the ears of the projects developers which in most cases weighs more than someone that do not contribute at all. As with all open source hobby projects (which XBMC is) everyone working on the project do so for free, thus we can not bark orders at anyone. Eveyone have their own personal agenda for working on XBMC, some do it for fun, others for the challenge or experince, and some (if not most) do it because XBMC is a software that they themself use on a regular basis, (this is the reason why some features in XBMC no longer have an maintaner at all and are completly ignored, and why other existing and new features gain all the attention of some developers). Basicly if you want something done for sure in an open source software project then you have to do it yourself, so those who do nothing to contribute at all will most of the times just be ignored.

In any case, the fact remains that at least Pike and I agree that (at this time) restricting the official support to a couple of specified reference hardware platforms will be the right thing to do for The XBMC Project (once the XBMC Linux is mature enough). This might very well have changed in six-months. Nevertheless, users wanting to use XBMC Linux port on other hardware will have nothing to fear, we are sure that third-party websites and communities will be created that build and support their own Linux Distros with XBMC with their preferences, that is not a bad thing.

PS! What it is that make you jonb2 think that you have all the answers and eveyone should do what you say? If you have not noticed it you do not tend to use frases like "I think that...", "I feel this.." or "My personal opinion is...". Instead you speak as eveything you say is fact and should be blindly obeyed, and I think that is a very annoying trade in a person. Other people have been hanging around in these forums for years and they all managed to use common sense and good netiquette (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netiquette), but you we do not know so why should we respect your options, for all we know you could be a 12-year old shut-in with no social-interaction or real-world experience, who believes trolling (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_%28internet%29) and flaming is a cleaver way to get you heared online. I say that all you done so far is spread FUD (Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear%2C_uncertainty_and_doubt).

By the way, what I am going here is called constructive criticism, and though my guess is that you will probably answer me in an immature way and do some more trolling, trying to spread more FUD, but how about if you instead try to take in what others and myself said, then continue this discussion in a mature way, respecting other peoples opinions and try to contribute to the XBMC project in a possitive and groove way? ...if not then this is probably the last time someone replies to you in this forum.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I don't know where you get that I'm trolling, and if it makes you feel big to band me for disagreeing with you not much I can do about it. As to barking orders, no haven't barked a single order to anyone, I'm guessing your talking about where i said; what I would like to see or what is possible. If you want to jump on someone thats trolling like a 10 year-old look at the person that was saying 'I don't have a clue' when they don't even understand the discussion.

As I've already said I think XBMC is the best around and many months ago said I would love to see it ported to linux. I think the devs did an amazing job with it upto this point on the xbox and I want to see grow. I don't want to see it's support locked down to proprietary apple niche product and when someone comes in with a question and they are told to go to www.somewhereelse.org (http://www.somewhereelse.org) because their question doesn't fit the covered support.

I understand the devs do it for free and am very grateful to them. I don't see how I've spread any f.u.d. when all I have been saying is that support should not be limited to niche hardware. There is no question the devs know what they are doing or that it will succeed or if it will run on various hardware configurations. It will. What I've been talking about is what this site will support, and I know do not have any control in that, but I do have an opinion.

I understand it is easier to support 1 thing then 2 or 10 etc... but it doesn't make sense to create something like XBMC which will appeal to millions and only support hundreds. By supporting a meer 4-5 interchangeable hardware configurations you go from supporting hundreds(mac niche hardware) to supporting hundreds of thousands (pc's hardware).

As to how I put my sentences together, I think you are reading more or less into them than is there. Unless I say something like 'The fact is' or something that explicitly implies fact, I'm stating my opinion. Just happens to be the way I talk/type, and not intended to offend. Though the one reply where I told the guy RTFM was intended to offend him, because he was clueless when he had no idea what he was talking about and randomly jump on me.

One thing I may be confused on: It is my understanding that the devs write the code and ops/admins/mods/managers run the site/forums. Is that correct ?

For the record I'm 30 something, and have owned and operated a computer service and repair company for the last 8 years and if you'd like to talk voice to voice. PM me and I'll give you ph. or setup a voip server.

I think I've wasted enough thread space going off topic to respond to you and maybe I've cleared up my point of view, if not then I guess this was my last post and I still look forward to XBMC on linux.

szsori

2007-06-01, 04:37

Providing support for more than a handful of strict platforms will make the developer's lives hell. Supporting the Xbox is relatively easy right now because they don't have to worry about whether an issue is hardware related (with rare exceptions). Once you open the support to many hardware platforms the hardware related issues will far outnumber the XBMC related issues. The devs don't need that. Go on any other HTPC software's forums (Media Portal, Meedio, etc) and you'll find how odd things can get when you try providing support for all sorts of different hardware.

Keep in mind as well that we're only talking about OFFICIAL support. I'm sure if people have well known hardware that doesn't fit the official platform standards, there will be other users that will be able to provide some unofficial support. It's not like the developers are locking you out if you're not using the supported hardware. Also, by opening the platform to any hardware that can run linux, we'll be gaining a LOT of users that can provide unofficial linux support.

ultrabrutal

2007-06-01, 10:41

once again... nothing is tied or limited! you can run xbmc on anything which supports it's requirements. the only thing here is that support will only be provided on the common selected platform which is not decided. you have no suggestions other that support any hardware and that is impossible and unrealistik. a function in xbmc can fail because of a driver issue or incompatibility between different hardware and where do you go? you go to xbmc support and say "this function does not work" when infact the problem is not xbmc but rather elsewhere. if you cannot see this problem so be it

Jezz_X

2007-06-01, 11:41

wow everyone has so much to say on this topic

Geeba

2007-06-01, 13:49

wow everyone has so much to say on this topic

Theres alot of XBMC fans!!! :grin: imagine how many more there are that dont join forums.... its a big thing... I mentioned it last night in the pub to someone and they use it to! funnly enough.. and his mates and so on.... :nod:

jonb2

2007-06-01, 14:38

once again... nothing is tied or limited! you can run xbmc on anything which supports it's requirements. you have no suggestions other that support any hardware and that is impossible and unrealistik. Thats not what I said.

I've plainly said on 2 occasions in this thread that it will run on any number of systems... There is no question the devs know what they are doing or that it will succeed or if it will run on various hardware configurations. It will. once ported to linux this will run on ten thousand hardware configurations, no ifs and or buts. I did not suggest trying to support all hardware, but did suggest supporting the 2 most common pieces from the most popular vendors for each different hardware type 2 MB/CPU (AMD - Intel, 2 well actually 3 video ATI - Intel - Nvidia, Realtek - Sound Blaster) and I was not talking about every product each manufacture makes. What I am talking is picking 1 specific part from each manfacturer. Example off the top of my head: From nvidia you take the 7600, from ati you take the 1600, from Intel you take a 935 board and there current most common video chip. etc...

With only 7 specific parts you enable support for a much larger user base.

Hypothetical example: Next year joe blo comes along and has a brand new dell it's far more likely that if he follows the instructions already in place it will work because it based on similar hardware. But lets say it doesn't work, and he post a question asking for help. He shouldn't be told we don't support that go over to somewhereelse.com maybe they can help you, or buy one of these and we can walk you through it then. I'm not saying the world should stop and everyone should work on solving his problem, but if someone knows the answer or has a possible solution it should be discussed whether it is officially part of the covered support or not.

grisen

2007-06-01, 17:36

Are there any plans on supporting TV cards as soon as the porting is done? AFAIK nor Apple TV or Mac Mini has TV cards, but I guess that lots of XBMC users would like to be able to add TV cards to their systems...

szsori

2007-06-01, 17:58

If "Joe Blo" had an issue like that, I'm sure he would get proper advice from a number of XBMC users. He just couldn't expect support from the devs themselves.

He may also be told that his best option for solving his problem will be to ask on "Linux Forum X" (whatever) if that's the case. Even now people are told to post on other forums if the issue is unrelated to XBMC (see TV show scrapers). Sometimes telling a person where to go for help is the best thing you can do.

We're just beating a dead horse now, though. On to better issues like TV card support, running other programs via shell, and a better web interface (now that it could run apache).

bmfrosty

2007-06-01, 20:03

On to better issues like TV card support, running other programs via shell, and a better web interface (now that it could run apache).

Direct TV card support is a bit of a monster to support, and is probably way out of the scope of this project, but that doesn't mean a MythTV frontend isn't. An n-curses remote control would be drop dead sexy, and Apache is overkill for XBMC. A nice, single-purpose, light-weight web server is much better suited.

szsori

2007-06-01, 20:44

Integrating TV recording and live viewing seems like it wouldn't be that hard in linux. Just run a program in the background like the MythTV backend or NVrec for recording and have XBMC create the entries in the recording schedule file. I'm sure there's even better programs than those to do straightforward recording.

For live TV, you just need to run VLS in the background and have XBMC grab the stream. Changing channels could be done by having XBMC pass through those commands to VLS in the background. That wouldn't give DVR capabilities like pausing live TV, but it'd be a decent stopgap until something better could be worked in.

Gamester17

2007-06-02, 10:14

Apache is overkill for XBMC. A nice, single-purpose, light-weight web server is much better suited.I think that you are probably right on this, since XBMC will be a cross-platform software using the very same code base (and not seperate source code trees), best would be be if we also used a small cross-platform webserver and a cross-platfrom web-site running on that webserver. That way even if you run XBMC nativly on an Xbox, or on a x86 Linux-computer, or a future new game-console port, both the webserver and the website for remote-control would still look and function the same (as they share the very same code on all platforms).

XBMC uses GoAhead WebServer (http://webserver.goahead.com) as its current code for this, and it was the best webserver for Xbox version of XBMC at the time it was implemented. It is very small, designed for embedded systems, and is cross-platform already. Unfortunatly GoAhead Software Inc. (http://webserver.goahead.com/webserver/webserver.htm) who maintain the original branch of the GoAhead WebServer (http://webserver.goahead.com) seems to have stopped development of the source code in December 2003, (and I at least can not seem to find any projects with forked version of the GoAhead WebServer on which development have continued since then, can anyone of you?).

...the main limitation of the GoAhead WebServer is the lack of native ASP , PHP, and JavaScript support, which I agree is quitesome limitation, (as right now you can really make websites for it in standard HTTP and/or AJAX without JavaScript). The main iisue we have here is that no developers on Team-XBMC seems to have had a personal interest in maintaining the webserver source code, and no outside / third-party developers have stepped up and submitted any patches to show that they would be willing to help us update and maintain the webserver code (either by replacing it with a other webserver library or by adding additional libraries/code which add additional function):
http://www.xboxmediacenter.com/wiki/index.php?title=The_Web_Interface
http://xbmc.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1358

Still LiquidIce629 and crew managed to do marvels creating a XBMC remote-control website for XBMC using AJAX (and no JavaScript):
http://xbmc.org/forum/showthread.php?t=18680

Also nad have extended the HTTP-server support with his HTTP API which enables many more ways to control XBMC via HTTP:
http://www.xboxmediacenter.com/wiki/index.php?title=WebServerHTTP-API
http://xbmc.org/forum/showthread.php?t=8760

PS! The webserver in XBMC is not meant to serve as a standard webserver, end-user are not suppose to use it to host their private website on, it is only ever meant to be a remote-control-interface for XBMC (and maybe at most also a way to access your local media-files remotly)

gfmc

2007-06-02, 14:53

As a long-time XBMC user, I'm fine with official hardware support being limited to one or a few platforms. Really all I want is an XBMC box that can decode HD video streams, I don't care about Linux related politics or anything like that. I've tried all of the other PC based (Windows and Linux) media player front-ends and none of them are anywhere near as slick as XBMC in terms of great UI, number of formats supported, etc.

I'll be glad to get rid of the split I currently have between SD and "HR" HD content and full HD content, which I currently view via the Xbox 360's MCE functionality (which I find to be far inferior to XBMC). If this means I have to buy some specific supported platform for a few hundred dollars, I'm ok with that.

szsori

2007-06-02, 21:16

With regards to the webserver, I think one that can at least handle php or perl would be ideal, since it would open up all sorts of neat plugin options.

For example, if XBMC-Linux does work as a frontend for a TV recording program, people might find it easier to schedule those programs in a web interface. I'm sure there would be scripts that could benefit from web configuration as well. Most of all, it would be REALLY cool to have a web interface to the library data, where people could manually edit entries if they needed to.

Finally, an "advanced" section could allow people to make changes to their AdvancedSettings.xml without ever having to touch the file itself. It would make things much easier on users without a lot of technical experience.

I'm not saying all of these things would come to fruition, and I'm not saying that Apache would be the way to go, but I think that if a more powerful web server is used it would give web developers like myself an easier way to contribute.

raid517

2007-06-03, 02:25

@ultrabrutal

I haven't said 'support any hardware' at all - and you should know that this is a deliberate distortion of what I did say.

What I have said is that if you are going to support a limited set of hardware, it might be a good idea to choose that hardware from generic off the shelf parts, rather than tying it to any kind of proprietary platform.

Sure you could shoehorn it to run on Apple TV, or the PS3 or whatever, but despite what you have said these do have really quite a specific set of hardware components. Too specific in the sense that it does add more work to the task of then getting XBMC to run on more generic platforms.

If you choose off the shelf PC parts, there are a large number of advantages to this.

First you are not tied to the fortunes of a proprietary platform or company. If AppleTV is a flop, then what will this mean for XBMC? We will surely all at that point end up back at square 1.

Secondly by choosing off the shelf PC parts, this gives you the ability to respond quickly to new changes within the technology sector than would be possible with a proprietary platform. For example say the next new holohraphic disk drives came out in the next two years, or say a new kind of display technology was released? The PS3 and and Apple TV and other similarly proprietary platforms are not at all well placed to respond to these changes. So we might end up back in a few years at a point where we have everyone complaining (like they have about HDTV) that this or that technology isn't supported. While having a few reference designs may be a good idea, building these designs with off the shelf PC parts allows you to improve on these reference designs as and when new technologies emerge. (Just as Apple does, since while they do have a limited set of supported hardware, when new technologies that are desirable do emerge, since they too use fairly generic parts, it allows them the ability to respond quickly and efficiently to these changes).

Thirdly, if you do use generic PC parts and build a few specific reference designs, it makes it much easier to run XBMC on other similar platforms also - which might not exactly match the specifications of the reference designs. This is because in most cases, anything that runs on any relatively modern PC, will often run on 95% of all other PC's also, without very much issues. So it won't matter in most cases that it isn't supported, since 9 times out of ten it will probably work perfectly well anyway. This doesn't mean that you can't run XBMC on Apple TV, or the PS3 or whatever other platform you might like, only that this then becomes the task of the hackers who always do this kind of thing anyway. There is no reason if it runs on (a limited number of) generic PC parts that it can't be ported to AppleTV, or the PS3 or whatever you want - all it means is that you might have to go to a little extra effort to do this. (Which as I said is fair enough, as this always has been the job of the enthusiast hackers anyway to do this sort of thing).

From your perspective you seem to think the best way would be to develop for another proprietary platform - to only build XBMC (or at least the officially supported version) on Apple TV or the Sony PlayStation and then anyone who wanted to run XBMC on standard PC parts would have to do some extra work to get it running on their PC's. But I think this is the wrong way round - because this really badly limits the amount of people who will be able to use XBMC (with official support) from the outset - pretty much for all of the reasons I stated above.

PC's will never go away, but Apple TV and Sony PlayStation etc will probably come and go. PC's are also much cheaper in many cases than proprietary platforms (so you can keep costs down for users) and are much better able to respond to changes in technology. The number of people who also have access to PC's is also vastly more than all of the other possible proprietary platforms combined - so you instantly have the potential to vastly increase your user base.

These are of course all just suggestions, but as I said I think that the advantages for using off the shelf PC parts in the selected reference designs far outweigh any advantages of simply selecting and sticking to (yet another) single (or perhaps more than one) proprietary platform really probably ever could.

I don't think there is really such a good case for tying your hands - and at least if you use off the shelf PC parts, you won't really ever need to do this.

As I said, this is just my thoughts on this though. The ultimate choice will still unarguably be down to the developers themselves.

raid517

2007-06-03, 02:36

Sorry just a small adjunct since I can't seem to edit. But one example of what I'm saying is that what would happen if (for example) you wanted HDDVD and BlueRay disk support in XBMC? (I know these are officially supported in Linux yet, but it is likely this will be overcome, just as the issue of DVD playback was overcome). This would be virtually impossible to achieve on a proprietary platform (dose Apple TV even have a BluRay or a HDDVD drive?) but perfectly conceivable and achievable on a PC platform. This technology almost always seems to reach the PC first, before it reaches any other platforms.

The same is also true of any other new technology that might emerge. These proprietary platforms are simply not well placed at all in being able to adapt to these changes.

ultrabrutal

2007-06-03, 02:47

off the shelf computer parts that are around in 5 years, heck say 5 months... does not exists... im not saying that xbmc should not support any hardware if it was possible, just that the common support platform must exists for more than a few months like the xbmc has... or do you want all xbmc users to keep switching hardware every few months? or support more and more hardware over time? I cannot see the logic. can't have it all. this is not a big company with 100's of devs you know

Keep in mind that it's currently being developed on regular pc's

No some people will make generic XBMC distros's that run on any PC (that are compatible of course) - these will just not be supported directly

ultrabrutal

2007-06-03, 02:49

applytv has no drive no. but macmini has. there is a new version coming later this year. lets see what it has... anyways it might be exchangeable?

bmfrosty

2007-06-03, 03:14

@raid517

You don't get it. The AppleTV, for all the purposes that matter, *IS* a standard PC. It's big advantage is that it's cheap, and the different revisions that will exist over time, should be limited in number. Otherwise, it's slightly underpowered for H.264@720p, but if NVIDIA manages to release purevideo drivers for Linux anytime soon, it will be perfectly suited.

The other nice thing is, the AppleTV is *CHEAP* compared to just about any other solution because it is built as a single purpose media center from the start. No more, no less.

If another company, any company were to build something like this, at the same price, with the same expected product lifetime, and the same or better power, it would also make a good choice. At the moment, there isn't. The only other companies that I'd expect to do this type of thing are Sony and Microsoft. Microsoft may put out something useful, but you can bet that the potential Sony version would probably be as gimped as the PS3.

szsori

2007-06-03, 08:49

Can someone rename this thread to "The beating of a dead horse" already? :)

I have an idea that might suit everyone, though. It's been mentioned that a few supported platforms from different price ranges might be selected as "officially supported platforms". Why not select one set of "official" PC components to support as well?

For example, you could support the AppleTV as your low-end platform and the Mac Mini as your mid-level platform. Then choose a set of PC hardware to support as your high-level platform. This could either be a system made by a PC manufacturer that doesn't change their hardware very often (http://us.shuttle.com/Home_MCE.aspx) or parts that users could assemble themselves.

By using the latest "basic" parts from well established manufacturers, it would be possible to come up with a standardized system that could be used for at least a few years. The most important of these is the video card, since it's going to be the pickiest component with the shortest life. The other stuff is easy, though... a motherboard from ASUS with on-board optical audio, a SATA hard drive, and a video capture device from Haupauge (if needed at some point). Including the drivers necessary for Bluray and HD-DVD (as well as DVD+-etc, CD, etc devices) shouldn't be that hard, since a handful of drivers cover all of them and rarely have compatibility issues.

paperclipmonkey

2007-06-03, 16:03

I think it'd be a better idea to give the linux port it's own sub-forum so that all of the different ideas can be given threads of their own. So support/ideas/discussions can be held separately instead of being held in one massive thread.
Just an idea
Paperclipmonkey

bmfrosty

2007-06-04, 03:06

Here's a manufacturer that may be worth talking to once the project is closer to it's second milestone:

http://www.koolu.com/

They're currently building something that's designed to be a mythtv front end.

Livin

2007-06-04, 05:33

This is a heated subject so I do not mean to put fuel on the flame... so if you are excitable, don't read further, skip this post.

To those pushing for an 'open' platform...
Members pushing for a 'closed' hardware platform like AppleTV, PS3, etc don't get it and they may not ever. (not trying to be mean, this just seems clear at this point). Most I get the feeling (yes, feeling - my opinion) do not know or understand the limitation of a 'closed' platform and do not understand that it will eventually run into the same issue we are facing now with the original XBOX.
Yes, 'closed' platforms are easier to develop/support for/on but are limited in longevity and ultimately usefulness... as we are seeing today.

To those making the decision...
What I and others here are pushing for is not a single/multiple platform standard but "reference hardware" ... like ... ATI and NVIDIA (the defacto standards in the industry) video, Intel chipset P945 and P965, etc. This is standard industry practice for decades now.

What this means is that you can use the 80/20 rule...
by officially supporting specific reference hardware and drivers (e.g. version XX of the ATI driver on chipset XYZ) then you allow a wider range of reasonable supportability for the majority of the users.

Anyway... I'm done explaining the point. To those who understand hardware and software support (like myself, 15 years professionally for Fortune 100 companies) this will make sense. For those that don't get it or just want to support the "easiest" and least effort, they will push AppleTV or the like.

That is my $0.02... coming from a simple dude that has worked for the largest software company in the world and the 2nd largest hardware company (the one that now supports Ubunto) -- Take it as you will.

bmfrosty

2007-06-04, 06:50

@affni

Hi. I see what you're saying, but I want to be able to be told that I can purchase X piece of hardware for a reasonable price, and then burn a file to a CD or a USB stick, pop it in and have it just work.

I don't want to have to fight *ANYTHING* to get this to work. I don't want to have to build a computer to a certain minimum spec, and then hope that the hardware matches what drivers are available in the distribution. I don't want to have to go to command line to make some adjustments before it will work. I don't want to have to go to support forums or to an IRC channel, and hope that there is someone that can point out what I've been doing wrong and how to fix it.

I'm all for generalized support. I personally think that when this is ready to go, the developers should engage the mythdora (http://g-ding.tv/) team and see if they can get it included in a future release of mythdora. I also think that for someone like me, or my parents, or anybody I have to advise about this type of thing, a single, standardized platform would be golden.

Oh. As long as we're comparing notes, I did support for an online university for 3 years, and have spent 7 years doing support for the one of the worlds largest telecomm companies.

Livin

2007-06-04, 07:07

bm,
Your "wants" are 100% covered by a "reference design" - if you buy items in the reference design, it just works - no fighting. Nothing personal but your post shows a true lack of understand the meaning of reference design.

I was not trying to "compare notes" I was trying to show that I have some real experience behind my statements... I did not just support the systems; I design them. I fully understand "design for supportability" and that is what I'm trying to explain.

bmfrosty

2007-06-04, 07:43

Ok. So how about this. Can you give me a reference design, that anybody could tell their mom to buy, and could reasonably expect them to understand to the point where they could from memory relay it to a salesman?

The moment that you give your mom a list of supported chipsets, it no longer works. If you call Dell and ask for a system with a specific chipset, chances are the salesman will get confused, and it doesn't work. If someone has to dig through a web site like aimicro (http://www.aicmicro.com/SYSTEMS.ASP?type=barebone) to get a computer built from a list of supported pieces, it doesn't work.

It no longer works under the KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) philosophy.

It works for me. It works for most of my friends. It works for people that hang out on message boards like these. I can build a computer, most of my friends can build computers, and I'd wager that most of the people reading these posts can build a computer.

My mom can't. Maybe your's can.

-----

It's reasonable to design this to work on just about any PC, but my hope is that in addition to that, the development team will pick a couple of specific platforms, and will make an extra effort to make sure that on those platforms, it just works.

szsori

2007-06-04, 07:45

I think what pretty much everyone is missing is that if a proprietary system is supported immediately, when that system becomes outdated or hard to find, it should be relatively easy to switch to the next system to support. The same would need to be done with a reference design, since drivers and hardware change over time.

Say AppleTV is the first supported platform. What's to prevent the developers from also supporting the Mac Mini when that comes out. Then imagine that the AppleTV officially flops and nobody can buy them anymore. The developers just select the latest platform in the same price range that will do what they need it to do.

Since it's linux, it would take all of a week or two to get the new drivers into the distro and do some proper testing. They don't need to stop supporting AppleTV at that point either, since XBMC-Linux will probably be pretty stable on that hardware at that point. Basically all that's needed is a platform that's going to work for at least a couple years, just to keep the extra work to a minimum.

szsori

2007-06-04, 07:49

Oh.. since we're now required to post our resume when making comments, I've been a high level programmer for the past 8 years and worked for 10+ years in hardware and user support.

Reference design is required for major software companies because they can't afford to exclude large numbers of users due to hardware conflicts. It's not required in an instance like this, which is more closely related to embedded systems.

bmfrosty

2007-06-04, 07:50

Livin

2007-06-04, 07:53

szsori... you and I are speaking the same language. I just used reference design to make a point... that more then just a closed system was the best way to go.

bm... you are a funny guy... you're mom cannot build a PC, I'm sure she cannot... but she's also not going to install Linux or better yet... download XBMC and install that... and most likely even care. If she does, you'll be doing it for her and your point is moot anyway... hehehe nice try though ;)

bmfrosty

2007-06-04, 07:58

Yeah, but it's my mom, and since I know there is no way to get her to pay me back for the thing, I've got to make sure she pays for it on her credit card, and if I do that part for her, and for some reason she doesn't use it, she'll say that I pushed her into it. :eek:

:D

Jezz_X

2007-06-04, 13:07

and just because I can my useless pic of the day
http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/8232/snapshot10hi7.th.png (http://img174.imageshack.us/my.php?image=snapshot10hi7.png) http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/9914/snapshot11vc3.th.png (http://img440.imageshack.us/my.php?image=snapshot11vc3.png)

paperclipmonkey

2007-06-04, 13:19

KDE with XGL, nice setup jezz_x.
Has anyone tried this to work on OpenSUSE?

inkubux

2007-06-04, 16:29

I think that you are probably right on this, since XBMC will be a cross-platform software using the very same code base (and not seperate source code trees), best would be be if we also used a small cross-platform webserver and a cross-platfrom web-site running on that webserver. That way even if you run XBMC nativly on an Xbox, or on a x86 Linux-computer, or a future new game-console port, both the webserver and the website for remote-control would still look and function the same (as they share the very same code on all platforms).

XBMC uses GoAhead WebServer (http://webserver.goahead.com) as its current code for this, and it was the best webserver for Xbox version of XBMC at the time it was implemented. It is very small, designed for embedded systems, and is cross-platform already. Unfortunatly GoAhead Software Inc. (http://webserver.goahead.com/webserver/webserver.htm) who maintain the original branch of the GoAhead WebServer (http://webserver.goahead.com) seems to have stopped development of the source code in December 2003, (and I at least can not seem to find any projects with forked version of the GoAhead WebServer on which development have continued since then, can anyone of you?).

...the main limitation of the GoAhead WebServer is the lack of native ASP , PHP, and JavaScript support, which I agree is quitesome limitation, (as right now you can really make websites for it in standard HTTP and/or AJAX without JavaScript). The main iisue we have here is that no developers on Team-XBMC seems to have had a personal interest in maintaining the webserver source code, and no outside / third-party developers have stepped up and submitted any patches to show that they would be willing to help us update and maintain the webserver code (either by replacing it with a other webserver library or by adding additional libraries/code which add additional function):
http://www.xboxmediacenter.com/wiki/index.php?title=The_Web_Interface
http://xbmc.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1358

Still LiquidIce629 and crew managed to do marvels creating a XBMC remote-control website for XBMC using AJAX (and no JavaScript):
http://xbmc.org/forum/showthread.php?t=18680

Also nad have extended the HTTP-server support with his HTTP API which enables many more ways to control XBMC via HTTP:
http://www.xboxmediacenter.com/wiki/index.php?title=WebServerHTTP-API
http://xbmc.org/forum/showthread.php?t=8760

PS! The webserver in XBMC is not meant to serve as a standard webserver, end-user are not suppose to use it to host their private website on, it is only ever meant to be a remote-control-interface for XBMC (and maybe at most also a way to access your local media-files remotly)

I personally think that you shoule use lighthttpd for this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lighttpd

It's a well proven web server which is small, fast and can run PHP.

ultrabrutal

2007-06-04, 17:16

what about mono?

http://www.mono-project.com/Main_Page

Gamester17

2007-06-04, 17:20

I personally think that you shoule use lighthttpd for this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lighttpd
It's a well proven web server which is small, fast and can run PHP.I am not sure the BSD license (http://opensource.org/licenses/bsd-license.html) is compatible with GPL (http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/gpl.html) which is what XBMC is licensed under(?) ???

inkubux

2007-06-04, 19:00

I am not sure the BSD license (http://opensource.org/licenses/bsd-license.html) is compatible with GPL (http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/gpl.html) which is what XBMC is licensed under(?) ???

The old BSD liscence was not compatible, but As far as I know the newer BSD liscence is compatible:

http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#OrigBSD

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BSD_license

The GNU project has called this clause "obnoxious", explaining that as people changed the license to reflect their name or organisation it led to ridiculous advertising requirements when programs were combined together in a software distribution—every occurance of the license with a different name requires a separate acknowledgement—and citing the requirement for 75 such acknowledgments when advertising a 1997 version of NetBSD.[1] In addition, it presents a legal problem for those wishing to use BSD-licensed software under the GPL: the advertising clause is incompatible with the GPL, which does not allow the addition of restrictions beyond those it already imposes.

The advertising clause was removed from the official BSD license text on July 22, 1999 by William Hoskins, the director of the office of technology licensing for Berkeley,[2] in response to a request from Richard Stallman.[citation needed] Other BSD distributions removed the clause, but NetBSD still uses the original version of the license and many similar clauses remain in BSD-derived code from other sources.

jonb2

2007-06-05, 04:12

There seems to be a good bit of confusion about what XBMC will do verses what linux will do. I will try to clairfy it a bit, The purpose is to clarify the facts so that there is less confusion. Please correct any mistake I make here, but be specific in what your correcting and do so with fact not opinion.

XBMC Does not control hardware or provide drivers for it.
XMBC Does not encode or decode video.
XBMC Does not encode or decode audio.
XBMC is a programed interface (the best interface around) linking to other programs and codecs that do those things.

Linux along with other apps will handle the hardware and networking whether it is a pata, sata, usb drive or intel, amd, nvidia, hybrid, mac, board.

Linux is a text based OS it does not have graphic interface, additional applications provide a graphic interface (X windows) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X_Window_System) in linux.

Now here is where the catch comes in. If a linux distro is modded to be XLMC (X Linux Media Center) it is at this point the devs decide what to include with the distro. Drivers, apps, what if any setup questions, if runs from a live-cd or installs on a drive so forth and so on.

XBMC will actually be an application that runs in linux and could be launched from gnome or kde desktops etc... but many (including myself) are interested in using XBMC as the desktop itself.

The following seems to be the point of confusion and debate. It should not matter if you have a mac-x, shuttle htpc or full tower yada yada yada as far as setting up a live-cd. As long as the drivers for the hardware are included the setup would be the same in all cases. Linux will load the hardware detection and pick the drivers that most closely matches your hardware configuration, load them and boot up to the XBMC login screen or straight to the interface depending on how they configure it.

It is of course totally up to the devs what is included, but I really don't think they would remove drivers unless the driver/hardware actually caused a problem. To better understand this I suggest anyone still confused about the linux portion of this go try out an ubuntu live-cd. (http://www.ubuntu.com/getubuntu/download) (This is not to say they will be using ubuntu, but meerly so you can have a limited idea of how a linux live-cd works.)

Much of the debate has been about what will be supported. There are 2 sides to that coin I want to mention here (and probably not the two some of you are thinking about). Again if I am incorrect here even in part please correct me.
1 The code the devs write. What is on the live-cd. The apps the drivers.
As I've already said I doubt any drivers/hardware that work properly would be removed (why fix it if it ain't broke). So it is likely that if they choose to support mac-x as the reference hardware, it will still support standard PC's unless by chance they chose a distro specifically designed for the mac-x.

2 What these forums and the site will support.
It would be totally unreasonable for them to support every possible hardware configuration, on the other hand it would be a mirror image of that if they only supported one or two hardware configurations (this was what I was talking about previously). I would imagine as time passes support on this site will increase, though it is possible that it would not.

Note: If that was to become the case, I imagine some in the linux community would pick it up and create their own distro for the pc (this of course is meerly speculation and for the most part months or more away).