XBMC feature-freeze and bug-bash!

[Gamester17]

xboxmediacenter feature freeze and bug-bash!

ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls. we are happy to announce that we have once again put the official xbmc cvs (http://sourceforge.net/cvs/?group_id=87054) into a feature freeze and thus our third official public bug-bash has begun. this is the first step in the process of getting ready for another 'stable' point release of xbmc.

the cvs feature freeze means that in order to minimize new bugs, no major features will be introduced into the cvs (http://sourceforge.net/cvs/?group_id=87054) until after the source code for the point release has been finalised.

this feature freeze will also give skinners and translators (http://www.xboxmediacenter.com/info_faq.htm#translations) a chance to catch up as xbmc's skin-structure has also been locked down. skinners and users alike should note that skins made for earlier versions than 2.0.0 will no longer be supported, and that out-of-date translations will not be released with the 2.0.0 point release.

we should all do our best to find and fix most bugs before the release date for 2.0.0 can be set. this means that we now need your help more than ever with finding new bugs and reporting those bugs in a proper and detailed manner (http://manual.xboxmediacenter.de/wakka.php?wakka=submitbugreport).

we of course also extend a welcome to other developers; please help us solve these bugs and submit fixes for them (http://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=87054&atid=581838).

only with your help can we get an xbmc 2.0.0 point release ready in a timely fashion, but please understand that all the members of team-xbmc are non-paid volunteers, so we cannot set a definitive deadline at this stage. we will however do our best to have the first release candidate ready within a reasonable timeframe.

ps! also new since the last point release is the xbmc online-manual (http://manual.xboxmediacenter.com). what makes this manual special is the "wiki" format which means that anyone of you can help update it at any time! we appreciate all help with updating the manual to cover everything xbmc 2.0.0 has to offer.



please understand that it is very hard to track or monitor bugs using a forum alone which is why our bug discussion forum (http://www.xboxmediaplayer.de/cgi-bin/forums/ikonboard.pl?act=sf;f=3) is not intended to be used for official "bug reporting (http://www.xboxmediacenter.com/info_faq.htm#27)".

the bug discussion forum (http://www.xboxmediaplayer.de/cgi-bin/forums/ikonboard.pl?act=sf;f=3) is only intended for general bug discussion. if you are not sure that the problem you are experiencing is a bug or not, then you should first post your symptoms in the bug discussion forum (http://www.xboxmediaplayer.de/cgi-bin/forums/ikonboard.pl?act=sf;f=3) to see if someone else can verify this. only once verified should you submit the problem as a proper detailed bug report on our sourceforge.net bug tracker (with instructions on how to replicate the symptoms) (http://manual.xboxmediacenter.de/wakka.php?wakka=submitbugreport).

note! there is one bug that could possibly block the release of 2.0.0 if it's not fixed. the "sql database not created if harddrive is locked (http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=1253567&group_id=87054&atid=581838)" bug has been around for almost 6 months, making xbmc unusable for many users of soft-modded xboxes with larger, locked harddisks. *it prevents the database files that xbmc relies on from being created and written to, effectively rendering the my programs section unusable. *it only occurs with some harddisks, and only occurs when the harddisk is locked. the developers have been unable to replicate this bug (and thus unable to remedy the issue) due to not having a suitable harddisk that shows the problem. we are requesting a donation or loan of a harddisk that has the issue, or some monies and a list of susceptible harddisk model numbers so that we can purchase a suitable one in order to replicate and fix this issue. if you have such a harddisk, or know of make/model-number of harddisks that exhibit this issue, please contact us here (link) (http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=1253567&group_id=87054&atid=581838).

what's new in the cvs since the 1.1.0 point-release (...well, most of what's new anyway):

supported file/container formats:
- dvd-video playback directly from xbox dvd-rom drive (with dvd-menu support)*
- dvd-video playback over smb, xbmsp and local hard drive (with dvd-menu support)*
- cd-text support for audio-cd (cdda), audio cds that have cd-text information*

supported video/audio codecs and picture formats:
- improved mpeg-4 avc - advanced video coding (h.264) decoding/playback *******
- ac3-cdda and ac3-wav audio codec
- dts-cdda and dts-wav audio codec***
- musepack (mpc/mpeg+) audio codec
- alac (apple lossless audio codec)
- ape (monkey's audio) lossless audio codec*
- wavpack lossless audio codec
- shn (shorten) lossless audio codec
- it (impulse tracker) tracker mod audio codec
- s3m (scream tracker 3) tracker mod audio codec
- mod (amiga module) tracker mod audio codec
- xm (fast tracker 2) tracker mod audio codec
- nsf (nes sound format) tracker mod audio codec
- spc (spc700) tracker mod audio codec
- gym (genesis) tracker mod audio codec
- sid (commodore 64) tracker mod audio codec
- adlib (opl2/3 fm) tracker mod audio codec
- ym (atari st) tracker mod audio codec
- adx/ast/adp/dsp/ymf/hps (nintendo gamecube adpcm compressed audio-files)

features available for the new native dvd-video player (http://manual.xboxmediacenter.de/wakka.php?wakka=dvdplayer):
- dvd-video playback with dvd-menu support (a work in progress, help is wanted here (http://www.xboxmediaplayer.de/cgi-bin/forums/ikonboard.pl?act=st;f=5;t=10877))*
- hdtv upscale/upconvert support (upscales/upconverts all dvds to 720p or 1080i)
- standard ff/rwd seeking* and backward and forward (2%/10% or time) jumping
- video picture bookmarking via osd (resume a movie later, even after reboot)
- automatic (hidden) bookmarking of current position on stop of playback
- puo (prohibited user operations) bypass, makes it possible to skip or ff intros, etc.
- play supported video files directly from bin, img, nrg and iso cd/dvd-images*
- switch between embedded audio-streams/tracks support (via menu or osd)
- switch between embedded subtitles in dvds (external subtitles are not supported yet)
- de-interlace filter (for interlaced video) implementation option (auto or manual)*
- sync interlaced output (for interlaced video) for 'i' view-modes (pal/ntsc/1080i)
- ac3 (dolby digital/ex) 2.0, 5.1 and 7.1 audio in video ac3 pass-through (s/pdif-out)
- ac3 (dolby digital) 2.0 and 5.1 audio in video software decoded to stereo analog-out
- dts (digital theatre sound/es) 48khz audio in dvd-video (dts digital pass-through)
- dts (digital theatre sound) 44.1khz/48khz audio in dvd-video (software decoded)*
- pcm/lpcm (2-channel/stereo) 48khz pass-through (s/pdif-out) support
- option to output mono or stereo to all speakers (for 5.1 surround speakers)

features available for video-file playback:
- play realmedia internet streams of http + rtsp/rdt (real data transport protocol)*
- play supported video files directly from rar/zip archives (inc. dvd-images in rar/zip)
- video picture bookmarking via osd (resume a movie later, even after reboot)
- automatic (hidden) bookmarking of current position on stop of playback
- switch between multiple audio-streams/tracks support in mkv (matroska) container
- left, right and stereo channel selection available for all two channel audio-streams
- watched/unwatched flag for videos (so you see which video-files you have seen or not)
- sync interlaced-output (for interlaced video) for 'i' view-modes (pal/ntsc/1080i)
- pcm/lpcm (2-channel/stereo) 48khz pass-through (s/pdif-out) support
- per-file-settings (stored in the sql database library for video files)

features available for audio-file playback/backup:
- new audio playback engine with gapless-playback and cross-fade support
- cue-sheet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/cue_sheet) support for all supported paplayer (http://manual.xboxmediacenter.de/wakka.php?wakka=papfaq) (new audio playback engine) codecs
- replaygain (http://www.replaygain.org) support, and automatic ssrc (http://shibatch.sourceforge.net) resampling from 44.1khz to 48khz
- many improvements/enhancements made to the sql database library for music files
- "music party mode", jukebox feature (requires music database with at least 50 entries)*
- last.fm (http://www.last.fm) (audioscrobbler) track submission and web services support (lastfm://)
- shoutcast top-500 access (internet radio listing from shoutcast.com top-500)
- support for album-info and cover/thumb lookup on allmusic.com internet database
- reads id3v1/id3v2/apev1/apev2/id666 tags
- vorbis comments (tag used in ogg and flac audio-files) and ogg chapter support
- play supported audio files directly from rar and zip archives
- play realmedia internet streams of http + rtsp/rdt (real data transport protocol)*
- karaoke cdg-file support for music files updated and improved (plus more integrated)*
- microphone support with voice mask (xbox communicator or madcat's phone adapter)*
- more audio visualizations (including the fabulous and amazing looking milkdrop)
- pcm (2-channel/stereo) 48khz pass-through (s/pdif-out) support

features available for picture/image-file viewing:
- improved slideshow function/feature (with 'fancy' transition effects)
- display supported picture files directly from rar and zip archives
- automatic generation of thumbnails in background processor-thread

new features available for xbox gaming:
- xlink kai (http://www.teamxlink.co.uk) front-end (online-gaming for "system-link" enabled games)
- kai connection and community front-end ******
- kai hosting options ******
- kai text chat ******
- kai voice chat (using speex) ******
- kai toast (pop-up notifications) ******
- team-xored (http://forums.maxconsole.net/forumdisplay.php?f=44)'s etm/xbtf engine (apply etm and

xbtf trainers to original xbox games)
- ntsc/pal-50/pal-60 video mode auto-switching (for tv's that support all modes)
- rename xbe

other and generic graphical user interface (gui) features:
- expanded and enhanced skinning engine, the most flexible skinning-engine ever!(?)
- context menu feature (title button on the remote or white button on the controller)
- usb keyboard support (hid), (us layout only) (remappable via keymap.xml)*
- screensaver api for xbmc, support .xbs screensavers specially designed for xbmc*
- new file manager (more logical file manager with split windows, 'commander'-style)*
- python script interpreter engine updated and improved, (for xbmc python scripts)
- optional splash screen on startup of xbmc (displayed if "media\splash.png" available)
- navigating sound effects (optional wav themes when moving through menus)

other non-gui features, functions and options:
- http api (http://www.xboxmediaplayer.de/cgi-bin/forums/ikonboard.pl?act=st;f=5;t=9397) (remote control xbmc via http cgi commands via pc or pda applications)
- ftp-server now prefers /e/ type of paths instead of the old /e:/ format
- ftp-server now supports so called 'site commands' (raw cmd "site help" for list)
- stacking methods changed to regular expressions (see xboxmediacenter.xml)
- skinnable lcd (via the lcd.xml file located in the system folder)
- file deletion support over smb/samba (if the share and file permissions allows it)

* = experimental, unfinished, unstable, buggy and/or limited
** = most xbox dvd-rom drives are very picky with cd/dvd media disks, see faq
*** dts-cdda & dts-wav will never be passed-through as dts, since they must be resampled to 48khz
**** = xbox's hard drive file system has file & folder name/character limitations, see faq
***** = drm (digital rights management) protected files are not supported by xbmc
****** = kai tunneling engine running on networked pc with internet access required
******* = h.264 encoded with cabac/deblocking will not play well due to slow xbox cpu

pps! please do not post bugs, feature suggestion or help/support requests in this topic thread. read and follow the xbmc faq (http://www.xboxmediacenter.com/info_faq.htm), thanks in advance.

footnote: for those who are new to xbmc, cvs (concurrent versions system) (http://sourceforge.net/cvs/?group_id=87054) refers to the most current (day-for-day) source code tree.

[CosyCat]

nice :)

[Scrufdog]

in preparation for the release i must ask, has the major dvd bug been fixed yet?

[bozo8787]

i like the idea of upconverting dvd to 1080i.
i've looked in the usual places to dl this but can't find it. anybody got suggestions? if it violates the forum rules then please feel free and pm me. thanx in advance.

[Gamester17]

there will be no builds from us, (and the cvs gets updated everyday), so either build/compile your own from cvs, or alternativly try to find a pre-compiled build of the latest cvs from someone.
please read/follow the faq, in this case: http://www.xboxmediacenter.com/info_faq.htm#02 and http://www.xboxmediacenter.com/info_faq.htm#03 thanks in advance.


in preparation for the release i must ask, has the major dvd bug been fixed yet?which "major dvd bug" would that be? in any case, the answer is to check changelog.txt in the cvs (http://cvs.sourceforge.net/viewcvs.py/xbmc/xbmc/?sortby=date) and search through the official bug-tracker on sourceforge.net (http://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=87054&atid=581838) for open and closed bugs

[C-Quel]

i think the dvd bug he i referring to is an old fix thats broke again...

- 23-01-2006 fixed: updating menu overlays on dvdstills took 40 seconds, now instant again.

keeps breaking thus the reason i don't personally use xbmc dvdplayer at present as i have no idea where i am on the dvd menu. i think there is already a thread on this i'm 99.99% sure so i will not re-open a new one.

[theunbound1]

is the mc360 skin made in preparation for the new stable release. or is this newest stable release made to adapt/adopt the new skin.

[Scrufdog]

actually i was talking about the bug that has been around where dvd video is choppy/blocky. after i asked i popped in doom the movie and it was still there.

[reddington]

to get back on topic, i'm glad to hear about the feature freeze. i think this is an important step for the software, and it will be good to get a consolidated solid build from which to launch into the next phase of development.

big thanks again to all people involved with this project.

[Tzon]

some dvd rarś dont work.. it will unpack it to .img then when starting it, it wont start the dvd.. happend with like 2 out of 20.. the rarś isnt bad, when i unpack and burn it, it will work so it must be something with the unpack and boot a dvd.. anyone has the same bug? ive tried with all cvs.. no im on 2006-02-26.. bug??

[Gamester17]

@tzon, from the first post in this thread!:please do not post bugs, feature suggestion or help/support requests in this topic thread. read and follow the xbmc faq (http://www.xboxmediacenter.com/info_faq.htm), thanks in advance.

[rimsky82]

at first i was thinking of asking you when you think the new mc360 skin will be released, in accordance with the stable point release. but then i realized that i would be selfish to ask, considering you guys do this for free, and do such a remarkable job. not to mention the fact that the cvs is updated every day, so we know you're working on it, and the program itself is so incredible, that its definitely worth more than free.

so i just want to say thank you for doing this, keep up the good work, and know that there are thousands of people that appreciate the work you do.

you guys rock; hardcore.

[drakethegreat]

yes xbmc is a great project and i find it amazing how frustrated people are about bug bashes. its common knowledge i thought that software needs to become stable, especially if its the core of your entertaining needs.

bug bash on and create a super sweet 2.0.0 release :thumbsup:

[nomaanc]

whats the progress?

i know u guys don;t want to say anything abut the release date but can atleast give an absolute max date of release?
so i dont have to keep anticipating (its killin me)

[tslayer]

it will be ready once it's ready. no max dates, no min dates, no dates...

[Megaman]

it will be ready once it's ready. no max dates, no min dates, no dates...
whats the status are you almost done or "oh, we haven't even started".

i looked around to see how many bugreports there were and how many were closed, but i haven't found any.

so could you please give us an inclination of what you feel is the status of the freeze 10% done 50% 99% ( ;) )

(as no dates will lead to many many many: "are you done yet, are you done yet, are you...") but a % is more nice to the little kids of no patience.

[drakethegreat]

i must note that even though the bug bash makes sense, i don't understand the no timeframe deal. obviously i respect the choice of the developers on this one because they code it but my programming experience suggests its best to set goals or else it will never get finished.

not trying to be rude here anyone just stating something that i think the developers should at least think briefly about. goal setting is a common thing in this world and while i'm patient and it would be fine if it took another year, it seems to just make more sense to have a timeframe. almost all serious projects do is what i'm trying to get across.

[elupus]

the reason for the no timeframe deal is just the problem that less dev's are interested in fixing bugs than adding features. and thus, you can never really tell how long its going to take.

[pike]

at the moment we're doing some major changes to where xbmc saves stuff like databases & settings, this will need alot of testing

@drakethegreat, just bringing the point up is "rude" in a sense.
we do as best we can, and when we feel like announcing a timeframe, we will.

[drakethegreat]

well i guess we don't see eye to eye on whats rude but that seems to make more sense. i guess people are confused as to what exactly is going on. for instance i don't understand what if any code exists for 2.0.0 and i hear stories about what features will be in it but if all the development efforts are on bug bashing (which is a good thing too) then are these features even being worked on for 2.0.0? its just confusing because everyone who doesn't have full cvs access is somewhat confused or maybe it is just me ???

thanks for replying though.

[jmarshall]

the general consensus is:

no new major features for 2.0.0. ie what you see now, is pretty much what you'll get feature-wise.

with that said, there are a few outstanding things that could be considered minor features that aid to the ease of use of the software which will be in before 2.0. for instance, the rearrangement and cleaning up of the settings interface and the folder structure. another thing is the thumb tracking is getting some work as it is not obvious (both from a code perspective and a user perspective) as to what takes priority (local thumbs vs imdb thumbs vs allmusic.com thumbs etc.)

what you get in anonymous cvs is exactly what the developers have, save for anything changed in their local repositories.

we are focusing on bug fixing. check the bug list on sourceforge and take a look at the closed bugs over the last month or 2.

many of the remaining bugs are either not reproducible, or are in the process of being fixed.

cheers,
jonathan

[nomaanc]

progress?

[tslayer]

progress?
yes

[nomaanc]

progress?
yes
nice :lol:

[SandmanCL]

i'm a bit puzzled regarding the versioning. a 2.0.0 release in general software terms to be implies tons of new features, but probably quite buggy. for a feature freeze wouldn't it make more sense to work on a 1.2 branch, and then have the 2.0 branch be where all the new features are introduced.

hoping for some progress here though :thumbsup:
i've held off on upgrading the last couple of months, hoping that the 2.0 would be 'around the corner'.

[drakethegreat]

i'm a bit puzzled regarding the versioning. a 2.0.0 release in general software terms to be implies tons of new features, but probably quite buggy. for a feature freeze wouldn't it make more sense to work on a 1.2 branch, and then have the 2.0 branch be where all the new features are introduced.

hoping for some progress here though :thumbsup:
i've held off on upgrading the last couple of months, hoping that the 2.0 would be 'around the corner'.
what they mean (or as far as i can tell) is that they are done adding the new features to 2.0.0 and are stablizing it for public use. this sort of thing is common for software development and is the reason why alphas become betas and betas become public releases.

[Markeen]

i stumbled upon this thread and i wanted to take the time to add my two cents about the 'planning' discussion.
it's fun to see how people want plannings and deadlines. to me plannings are just a way for bosses to stress the coders to code faster. i really enjoy those free projects where there are no dealines. everyone just codes when they want to and that's it, no one to tell you that it should have been done for yesterday. actually there are new versions everyday and it is really fun to see how the soft evolves.
i also think that it was a mistake from the coders side to annouce a feature-freeze and then change so much in the code. you put pressure on yourself for no obvious reason.
i also want to thank everyone working on this project (a thing that i don't usually do in 'work-posts').
so thank you for such a great work and dedication.

[elupus]

well.. the idea was to move from feature addition to code cleanup and bug fixing.. that some new features slip in will always happen, but it keeps the focus right. wich keeps us from scowering the feature suggest box for stuff to add.

[Firefoxer]

I'm new to this XBMC project, and I really want to install it on my extra xbox. My only question is that, should I wait for 2.0.0, or will it not matter because it will be easy to upgrade from 1.1 to 2.0.0 (and because it will be many months before the next release)?



Thanks.

PS: I don't know if this is the right thread to ask this question, but I can't search for other topics, the search function for this forum can't find the simplest keywords.

[pike]

PS: I don't know if this is the right thread to ask this question, but I can't search for other topics, the search function for this forum can't find the simplest keywords.

what do you mean with that ? did you try our old forums search engine ?

[Gamester17]

I'm new to this XBMC project, and I really want to install it on my extra xbox. My only question is that, should I wait for 2.0.0, or will it not matter because it will be easy to upgrade from 1.1 to 2.0.0 (and because it will be many months before the next release)?Don't wait, try the latest CVS now, (if you don't have the XDK/VS.NET tools to compile the XBMC source code yourself then then try to find a precompiled "T3CH" build that is no older than a couple of weeks old) then upgrade when 2.0.0 comes out

[Firefoxer]

Lol fixed it. Key Words are a bit tricky. It couldn't find threads with "2.0.0" in them, but it found ones with "yeah" in them. Oh well.

Thanks Gamester17, I'll give it a try.

[Xbox-Hq]

Hi. Just wondering if you guys could give a rough estimate on when you hope to get XBMC 2 out. In no way am I pushing or nagging by asking this.

It would be awsome if it could be atleast by the end of the year.

[HarshReality]

Yup... nobody with more than 10 posts would ask a question like that.

[Xbox-Hq]

Yup... nobody with more than 10 posts would ask a question like that.

Well I will, and I don't care how many posts I have. I don't see where a matter of the amount of posts should change my answer.

The main reason I'd like to know this is so I know roughly when to release the next ISO release of Auto-Installer Deluxe (which I'm deliberately holding off until XBMC 2.0 is out). I'm sorry if this doesn't mean anything to you, but it does to a lot of my users.

Regards,
DJB
Site admin of the HQ Network
Creator of Auto-Installer Deluxe / Softmod Installer Deluxe

[HarshReality]

The reason I said that is anybody with anykind of background in XBMCs forums would know you NEVER ask them that. It'll be done when its done and that will be when they feel its done and not a minute before.

No offense but I dont see the needs of a single person "holding off a release" that they are just going to throw up and not support without adding a pricetag (Yes I refer to your charging for services and support). They do this for the most part because they enjoy the work and the challenge not because they are trying to make a buck.

Perhaps offensive, Ive tried your AID and to be quite honest, your releases should be more current based on your own improvement and not dependant of software around you, **I edited and decided to stop before I went into one of my rambles**.

[Xbox-Hq]

The reason I said that is anybody with anykind of background in XBMCs forums would know you NEVER ask them that. It'll be done when its done and that will be when they feel its done and not a minute before.

No offense but I dont see the needs of a single person "holding off a release" that they are just going to throw up and not support without adding a pricetag (Yes I refer to your charging for services and support). They do this for the most part because they enjoy the work and the challenge not because they are trying to make a buck.

Perhaps offensive, Ive tried your AID and to be quite honest, your releases should be more current based on your own improvement and not dependant of software around you, **I edited and decided to stop before I went into one of my rambles**.

Well thanks for the compliments, you obviously really have it in for me, even though you're trying to hide it.

It's no so much "holding off" any updates what so ever, but when I do release a new ISO (instead of an update pack) it would be good if v2 of XBMC was on there. I'll continue to release an update pack every 2 months until the time comes that it's released.

I don't see how I'm not supposed to take offense to that. "Charging" for services? You obviously have only looked at the surface of the site and not bothered to look any further, otherwise you'd know what it is about. Unlike some other sites I could mention, we are NOT rich and dont have thousands of dollars in our pockets. The VIP donations is what basically keeps the site alive with hosting costs etc. but I'm not gonna more into this because I don't see it needed here.

Lastly, I do what I want with AID, and if I want to release an update pack every 2 months with the latest software, who's gonna stop me? Lots of people (yes including myself) find it quite useful that the installer is always kept up-to-date with newer apps (and if you bothered to look closer you'll notice that the installer script has been tweaked with every release one way or another).

I do see your point that new versions should be based on improvments, but the update releases are for v3.0, therefore it's not a new version as such. v3.1 (which will "hopefully" have XBMC 2 if I can hold out that long) will have some serious re-construction where some of the older and useless apps + emulators will be removed, and the menu system will be made a bit clearer.

Just my two cents...

[plugh]

I'm a bit hesitant to post this, and I hope it will be taken constructively.

I'm trying to figure out what the definition of 'feature freeze' is?

Since the 6-25 t3ch build a number of interesting enhancements have been made - the uPNP stuff, the profile stuff, the renderer stuff, coreavc, dvr-ms, python libraries, I could go on...

I've also noted a significant increase in 'problems' with releases since 6-25; in fact, when I've tried these newer releases, for one reason or another I end up going back to the 6-25 build.

The devo's had made tremendous progress since this 'feature freeze and bug-bash' started; as a user I'm making the observation that the 6-25 build is very stable (with a few exceptions) and has a feature set consistent with what we had back in March when it started.

So in the context of the 'feature freeze', the 6-25 build, with the addition of a few critical fixes (like the xlink kai crash fix, some smb fixes, the updates for the imdb changes) seems nearly "perfect" - as in perhaps it could form the base of a new 'stable release'...

Whether that would be "2.0" or "1.9" or whatever, it just seems like that build would be a good place to put a stake into the ground, applying only necessary bug-fixes and create a 'release candidate' build.

The other "neat stuff" that's been done lately would be part of a future 'stable release' (which I would look forward to, once all the 'new' things were shook out).

Anyway, I hope this post will be taken in a positive light. I know the fun and excitement of adding new, neat, things, but having been a software project manager in the past, I also know that you need to find that right point where you say to the team "this build is the basis for the next release" and only do necessary bug fixes to that build for the final release. IMO the 6-25 build is it.

[SleepyP]

what exactly are you talking about in the way of "problems"?

[pike]

I've also noted a significant increase in 'problems' with releases since 6-25; in fact, when I've tried these newer releases, for one reason or another I end up going back to the 6-25 build.

Do report them (properly) if you want them fixed, otherwise chances are high they will be in 2.0 FINAL

I mean it!

[plugh]

They have been getting fixed; it's just that build Y that fixes a feature introduced in build X introduces new problem Z because of some other new doodad introduced in that build.

And I guess the real point of my post was missed. What does 'feature freeze' mean when new features and significant reworks are being introduced (which triggers more bug bashing to fix the problems introduced by the changes)?

I am NOT saying enhancements should be curtailed; I AM suggesting that the 'feature freeze' that occurred last March with the goal of producing a stable release with THAT feature set imo pretty much attained that goal with the 6-25 build. That the 6-25 build, with the addition of a few critical fixes might form the basis of a stable release candidate.

The addition of the uPNP stuff is awesome; the profile rework is neat; the renderer changes are cool; the new codec stuff is great; but they weren't part of the feature set when the 'feature freeze' occurred. In the heat and excitement of adding all this cool stuff I hope the goal of the 'feature freeze and bug bash' hasn't gotten lost. I hope my post will trigger some discussion among the team as to whether, perhaps, there is validity to my suggestion. To take a step back, review the decision that was made last March and ask themselves 'did we actually get there'?

I'm going to back out of this discussion now; I said my piece. As an outsider I look at a lot of the post 6-25 changes and can't reconcile them with the stated intent of the "feature freeze and bug bash". ??? I'm not asking "when will it be ready" - I'm saying "congratulations, you're there" (in case you didn't notice it) :grin:

[Nuka1195]

What I find amazing, is more people in here complaing about the feature freeze than respond in this thread http://xbmc.org/forum/showthread.php?t=20166 that asks for your help.

Sounds like your arguing symantics. If you have a stable build, just call it 2.0 and you'll be happy.

[pike]

Then you're not helping AT ALL. You only piss me of basically.

If you say there are issues, but won't specify them, that's WHINING.

One can debate whether or not we SHOULD have frozen earlier, but it won't change the current situation. We have current CVS to work with and make 2.0 worthy. I can assure you it's getting close to a 2.0.0 release.
And if you refuse to specify which issues you found "after '6-25' build", you will just have to live with them. I don't want to hear any whining about them, unless you report them.

[plugh]

I am astonished at the reactions. Neither of my two posts 'complained' or 'whined' about ANYTHING. And as far as 'helping', well, one recent example was my work with Elupus to track down a problem with the new smbclient port. (That fix appeared in the 6-25 build, BTW)

The point of my post wasn't about 'issues' - I've already stated that problems I've encountered post 6-25 (for example the subtitle sticking thing introduced in the 7-25 build was fixed in the next build) are being / have been addressed.

Pike, I'm not trying to debate or be critical of any 'should have dones'; I assume your cvs system will allow you to create a fork based upon the state of the system when the 6-25 build was done, and that you could use that fork as the basis of a release candidate (adding in any critical fixes from the main thread) - but that is, I will admit, an assumption based solely on my experience with other code management systems. As a user, I wanted to provide feedback that said "hey that 6-25 build, with a few tweaks would be a really good candidate for the stable release announced in this thread". You may disagree (and apparently you do) that it doesn't meet the goals set out in this thread.

It was not my intent to anger anyone; I'm outta here...

[Livin]

One thing you will come to see is that most open-source and free software is always WIP. You need to treat it as such and forget about "releases".

Just use the build(s) you are happy with if you have issues with something.

I upgrade my build almost weekly, depending on the fixes and features added... and rarely have any issues (see any bugs). I use it almost daily to watch videos and listen to music.

Take it for what it is, great free software.

If you have a suggestion on how to make the software better, fantastic but otherwise leave the devs alone to fix and enchance the app they can run the project how they want.

[kybernetikos]

One thing you will come to see is that most open-source and free software is always WIP. You need to treat it as such and forget about "releases".

Just use the build(s) you are happy with if you have issues with something.
...
Take it for what it is, great free software.


Of all of the great free software that I use regularly - Firefox, Open Office, VideoLanClient, audacity, anyterm, apache, Eclipse, etc... this is only true of XBMC. The other thing that is only true of XBMC is how likely devs are to get offended at relatively innocuous questions that would be perfectly acceptable elsewhere - just see earlier in this thread for an example.

Now, I love XBMC and am waiting patiently for the release. Creating such a complex system is very impressive, and I understand that it's a volunteer effort, and I'm really grateful for the work you do. I've already donated some money to show my appreciation, and I will donate some more after the release, but do you guys know that you come across as really touchy?

Just because you've created something awesome, doesn't mean that you don't have some things to learn when it comes to interpersonal skills - in fact, the fact that you've created something awesome means people expect you to behave more professionally than people who have just chucked together something neat. Take it as a compliment, or find one of your members who can respond to stupid queries without taking offence and get them to do the posting to this forum.

If you guys don't want to run XBMC like a professional product, with regular releases and timescales and respectful support, etc. then that of course is your right. Just please don't get upset when people who have got used to the fact that most other successful Open Source Projects do run themselves like a professional product are a bit confused about XBMC.

kyb

[pike]

Of all of the great free software that I use regularly - Firefox, Open Office, VideoLanClient, audacity, anyterm, apache, Eclipse, etc... this is only true of XBMC. The other thing that is only true of XBMC is how likely devs are to get offended at relatively innocuous questions that would be perfectly acceptable elsewhere - just see earlier in this thread for an example.

I don't have time to find what your referencing to now, so I'm gonna assume it's plugh's post.
plugh clearly has his own agenda, he wants a stable version today or prefferably yesterday. For what reasons I don't know. Obiosuly we aren't going to fork of from such an old date.

Now, I love XBMC and am waiting patiently for the release. Creating such a complex system is very impressive, and I understand that it's a volunteer effort, and I'm really grateful for the work you do. I've already donated some money to show my appreciation, and I will donate some more after the release, but do you guys know that you come across as really touchy?

I don't frequent the "support channels" for other projects, but I'm VERY doubtful they have what we have (maybe on or two of these, but 3? I doubt it):
1. An IRC channel where you can get live support usually 24/7
2. A relatively uptodate online manual
3. This forum

We get crap on atleast 2 of those all the time, and have no real incentive to stay polite to everyone who knows better than us.

Just because you've created something awesome, doesn't mean that you don't have some things to learn when it comes to interpersonal skills - in fact, the fact that you've created something awesome means people expect you to behave more professionally than people who have just chucked together something neat. Take it as a compliment, or find one of your members who can respond to stupid queries without taking offence and get them to do the posting to this forum.

You may have a point here, but NOONE can take endless amount of crap and not "boil over" one day, especially if they don't get paid to do it.

If you guys don't want to run XBMC like a professional product, with regular releases and timescales and respectful support, etc. then that of course is your right. Just please don't get upset when people who have got used to the fact that most other successful Open Source Projects do run themselves like a professional product are a bit confused about XBMC.

This statement however is a bit too much for me to handle. If you can find several instances when we haven't been polite, show me. Meanwhile, know that part of this "impoliteness" comes from people telling us how to run our project, you can't do that and expect to not get attitude back!

Know that I always strive to be polite (disclaimer: unless someone break the cardinal rules ofcourse)

[kybernetikos]

I don't want to say too much on this topic, because as I hope is obvious I really do think you're an awesome group of people doing an awesome job. It's quite possible that I was a bit harsh in my last message as well.

I really do understand that you guys aren't paid and it must be really annoying to continually have people treat you as if you were, and they have some right to what you provide.

I suppose where I was coming from was that everytime I've seen a post asking what progress has been made, or for an estimate about time for the release, there's been a reaction that made it seem the person was attacking the project. I'm sure they didn't mean that. Some projects do have fairly strict timelines (must be very difficult to work on, since I have enough trouble with that at work!) and such a question would make sense to those projects, so these questions are almost certainly not coming from maliciousness.


They're probably more like the kind of person that I am - people who only upgrade the software on their Xboxes every now and then, are very excited about some of the new cool stuff you guys have put in, and want to know if they should wait for the stable release, or if it's more than 3 months or so away and they should just use a recent build. I used to check the news page on http://www.xboxmediacenter.com, but if that's what you do for news you start feeling pretty starved quite quickly.

Anyway, I'll shut up about this now - I certainly don't want to tell you how to run the project - you've created something great with your process so far. I hope that if I ever forget myself and ask for project status on this forum, you'll all forgive me, and understand where I'm coming from.

kyb